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Bankei's Bright Virtue

Discussion of Chinese Chán (禪) Buddhism.

Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby Lunarious1987 on Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:42 pm

My post i see now is a little wrong. But you understood me.

I think ... Like one Buddhist said (who was he, i don't remember). First i saw rivers and mountains as that (child) then i saw mountains and rivers differently and was scared and confused (adult, those you critisize) then again i saw rivers and mountains as just that (old and enlightened).

So mountains (earth) and rivers (water) are everything there is and you are rightly fundamentalist and don't need imagination. Imagination is like hope, first you need it. Then you don't.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:26 pm

L.,

Lunarious1987 wrote:Imagination is like hope, first you need it. Then you don't.

I think in general that's right! Excellent (of you to say it so clearly... ). :heya:

But in Buddhist practice, imagination is not really needed. The Founder (Shakyamuni Buddha) said nothing about it. He described the life of most people as like, "A bubble, a dream", anyway. So there's probably enough "imagination" pulsing through most peoples' veins already, ...or too much! ;)

In Zen Buddhist practice, "hope" is not too necessary, either, and it can be a hindrance. The reason is that "hope" is for something specific, something imagined. But, the state or condition, and the uncovered-assets of Awakening is/are all unimaginable, so "hopes" can and do tie a person unfortunately to some imagined end that can and does prevent awakening from occurring.

Hope for something -- like having any goal -- in Zen Buddhist practice is, well, "self-limiting". That is, limiting, for one thing. And -- specifically -- limiting to a narrow and fixed demand or construction (a target... ) of a fictional, non-existent, "self". Why put up with such a state of affairs? Better it would be not to let it ever develop... .

It was my hope and purpose in the "Imagination" thread to bring some of this out for discussion. The thread did that, a little.

'round about here, I think:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11595

--Joe
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby partofit22 on Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:36 pm

“To sit a long sesshin is a major blow to our hopes and dreams, the barriers to enlightenment. And to say that there is no hope is not at all pessimistic. There can be no hope because there is nothing but this very moment. When we hope, we are anxious because we get lost between where we are and where we hope to be. No hope (nonattachment, the enlightened state) is a life of settledness, of equanimity, of genuine thought and emotion. It is the fruit of true practice, always beneficial to oneself and to others, and worth the endless devotion and practice it entails.”
― Charlotte Joko Beck, Everyday Zen
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Thanks!, Teresa. Great to see Joko's wisdom on this.

And, interesting (and educational... ) to see her call "hopes and dreams" the "barriers to enlightenment".

:Namaste:,

--Joe

partofit22 wrote:
“To sit a long sesshin is a major blow to our hopes and dreams, the barriers to enlightenment.”
― Charlotte Joko Beck, Everyday Zen
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby Lunarious1987 on Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:40 pm

What joko says is for lay people. Hardcore laypeople or monks detach and dream, like the imagination possibility after the eight fold path rules are done and ok.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:09 pm

L.,

Lunarious1987 wrote:What joko says is for lay people. Hardcore laypeople or monks detach and dream, like the imagination possibility after the eight fold path rules are done and ok.

I don't know what "hardcore" means. It's too indefinite an attempt at a word. But in Zen Buddhist practice, one either practices correctly, or one does not.

I'd say that awakened people are much more free than they were earlier. Although they may not ever employ or invoke "imagination" to inform their actions and behavior, they now have true Wisdom and true Compassion to do so, which, for a Buddhist, are necessary and sufficient.

I'd say, too, that many awakened people experience dreamless sleep when they sleep. So I don't know what you mean by "dream", either.

The Eightfold Path is still a description of how they have cultivated, however, and the Eightfold Path usually remains also a description of how they continue to cultivate, whether with or without backsliding, in the awakened condition or state.

The Eightfold Path is not a "rule book" as you guess it is, but a set of steps that the Buddha recognized which need development in order to support awakening, and to allow and enable awakening in the first place. Incidentally, a practitioner may progress along some of the steps simultaneously; they don't require to be taken one at a time, and their cultivation may not succeed at all if one tries to take them that way. They're not a "check-list".

The steps are never really "completed", even when a person does eventually awaken to true nature. The reason is that The Three Poisons arise endlessly, and, thus, correct practice never comes to an end while there is breath and life in the body. The teachings teach that, and one definitely discovers it convincingly, too, in one's body and mind.

--Joe
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:28 pm

Thanks for the hints guys, it makes a lot of sense now. :)
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby Lunarious1987 on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:31 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:L.,

Lunarious1987 wrote:What joko says is for lay people. Hardcore laypeople or monks detach and dream, like the imagination possibility after the eight fold path rules are done and ok.

I don't know what "hardcore" means. It's too indefinite an attempt at a word. But in Zen Buddhist practice, one either practices correctly, or one does not.

I'd say that awakened people are much more free than they were earlier. Although they may not ever employ or invoke "imagination" to inform their actions and behavior, they now have true Wisdom and true Compassion to do so, which, for a Buddhist, are necessary and sufficient.

I'd say, too, that many awakened people experience dreamless sleep when they sleep. So I don't know what you mean by "dream", either.

The Eightfold Path is still a description of how they have cultivated, however, and the Eightfold Path usually remains also a description of how they continue to cultivate, whether with or without backsliding, in the awakened condition or state.

The Eightfold Path is not a "rule book" as you guess it is, but a set of steps that the Buddha recognized which need development in order to support awakening, and to allow and enable awakening in the first place. Incidentally, a practitioner may progress along some of the steps simultaneously; they don't require to be taken one at a time, and their cultivation may not succeed at all if one tries to take them that way. They're not a "check-list".

The steps are never really "completed", even when a person does eventually awaken to true nature. The reason is that The Three Poisons arise endlessly, and, thus, correct practice never comes to an end while there is breath and life in the body. The teachings teach that, and one definitely discovers it convincingly, too, in one's body and mind.

--Joe

Ok. Enligheten people don't dream. I agree. And I am sorry for saying such a mistake.

I believe people, like me, go through two phases of the devil
1 respekt (and then you are a warrior for the devil since you are strong)
2 fear (and then you are a slave because you are weak)
Then there is two paths for God
3 Nothing (wich leads to the next. People are here and ignore emptiness and chose to dream)
4 Compassion and wisdom

I am at level 2.5 or 3 here. I am struggelig with staying still! And acception emptiness. As respectable warrior and fearsom escapist i used to run all the time?!

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby Lunarious1987 on Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:31 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks for the hints guys, it makes a lot of sense now. :)

There was no hints. Woodworker corrected me.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Bankei's Bright Virtue

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:53 pm

Lunarious1987 wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:Thanks for the hints guys, it makes a lot of sense now. :)

There was no hints. Woodworker corrected me.


I was speaking in relation to the helpful hints regarding my grammar errors and ignorance of the English language due to my usage of the word "infamous" where I thought it meant something else.

Sam wrote:Perhaps like valuable and invaluable.


and

desert_woodworker wrote:Flammable, inflammable.

--Joe


Please observe your constant self-reference on this forum/world either with a teacher or psychologist, not every comment is about you. ;)
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