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"Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Discussion of Chinese Chán (禪) Buddhism.

Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:38 am

partofit22 wrote:Will somebody please fill me in on how Colin differs from any other member of this forum- Thank you!


I've been wondering the same thing for quite a while.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:22 pm

...he differs, among other qualities, in at least the fact that he has of late been mercifully silent. --Joe

(would that it were the case that the condition and arisings noted in the title of this thread have come to consummation).

:Namaste:
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:57 pm

partofit22 wrote:Will somebody please fill me in on how Colin differs from any other member of this forum- Thank you!


In form and behaviour we all differ from another but not in essence, it all conditioned, transient, empty of own being.
Saying same and different is ofcourse an interpretation upon perception, so saying anything is fundamentally false.
What was the question again, it's meant to be retoric right? :PP:
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby partofit22 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:00 pm

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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:09 pm

:)
Whatever you do, use those wings.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby partofit22 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:34 pm

Wild haggis have no wings ..
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:22 pm

A fictional creature as in the source of a haggis, I learn something every day with you.

I didn't even hear of a haggis before.... brain is on overkill today, translating 3 books at a time, trying to remember all the 100+ Latin words for animals from youth (I only got 8) learned 2 dozen new ruzzle words in 3 languages and a bunch of other stuff, well it's fun but soon back to the daily standard of being a lazy zombie zen turtle.

Thanks though, I enjoy picking up stuff. :)
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby cam101+ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:52 am

I can't see why it matters where compassion comes from. If someone acts compassionately and helps another being, then that is a good thing, some help was rendered.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:10 pm

Cam.,

The thread distinguishes -- as all Buddhists do -- between true compassion, karuna, which arises in the awakened person, and ordinary compassion, which is really sympathy.

True compassion arises when it is an experienced fact that there is no separation between otherwise seeming individual beings. It arises also simultaneously with true wisdom (prajna). True wisdom and true compassion arise only in an awakened individual. Both arise spontaneously, in seamless accord with circumstances, and just as circumstances arise.

Ordinary kindness and sympathy are extended by beings in delusion (of separate "selves"). Ordinary kindness and sympathy, extended in delusion, seem wonderful to extend, and may be wonderful to receive. However, many mistakes can also be made in their exercise, because the actions or responses extended as kindness and sympathy are made "in the dark", and not informed by true wisdom, prajna. True wisdom arises only in a person who is awake, and while a person is awake (awakening or realization is not necessarily permanent, and can be maintained and taken good care-of by continued, correct, practice).

Indeed, as Ch'an Master Simon Child teaches in the excerpt quoted in the OP (Original Post in this thread):

    "You realize this practice needs to continue, because you realize the harm in the degree of selfishness you're still continuing, and you know it doesn't need to be so... ."
A person who wishes to wake up, as Shakyamuni Buddha did, may wish to do so in order to perceive reality aright, and then to be able to use all our inherited Human resources in order to live properly in alignment with the reality one wakes to. The original Human inheritances are hidden, simply covered-up, by accretions of habits and ways of life which do not enable these assets to arise. Among these inheritances are the potential for true wisdom and true compassion. But it takes awakening, through correct practice, to uncover them and finally to allow their free and natural exercise.

Much more might be said in reply to your question, but the above facts should be the starting point and have a place in the open recognition of the difference between Karuna (true Compassion, expounded on by Buddhists), and sympathy, extended in delusion (where there is a giver and a receiver).

Also, true Compassion is not necessarily something that one feels, but it is spontaneous-action, in response to circumstances, just as circumstances arise. The concomitant and simultaneous arising of Wisdom is what ensures that the action (or non-action) is exactly appropriate, there being then no separation between "parties".

This is how Bodhisattvas save all Beings. There is one being, ...if that many.

But the awakening to true nature which is necessary to live this way requires correct practice (as many here may know), and is one of the three "pillars" of, say, Zen-Buddhist practice: i.e., "Study; Practice; Awakening".

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:29 pm

Edward Conze writes, too, in his Buddhist Thought In India (1962, 1967; p. 209), that the reluctance in Buddhism to assert either the existence or non-existence of a "self" is not a new tendency beginning only with Nagarjuna, but was already stated and can be found in the Kasyapa-parivarta:

    "To believe in a self is an extreme view; to believe in a not-self is an extreme view."
In the middle between the two lies the Middle Way,

    "the contemplation of dharmas as they really are."
--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:25 pm

Edward Conze illuminates yet another corner of this:

    "The identity of self and not-self cannot be fully understood by people who in actual practice oppose their own advantage to that of others. If a man exerts himself for the purpose of obtaining salvation and liberation for himself, and if he enters the freedom of Nirvana which cuts him off from the other suffering creatures whom he leaves behind, he can be said to make a difference between himself and others. Not so the Bodhisattva." (Ibid., p.211).
And, from elsewhere,

    "Seeking all-knowledge without seeking it before the appointed time -- this is the Bodhisattva's course." (Chapter 5 of the Vimalakirti-nirdesa Sutra).
--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby cam101+ on Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:16 pm

Well, even if I were a self righteous, arrogant so and so, if I help someone, then I help someone. The act is not related to the individual giving assistance. This has nothing to do w/ karma, that will work itself out accordingly. So the statement that "I can't see why it matters where compassion comes from. If someone acts compassionately and helps another being, then that is a good thing, some help was rendered" is spot on. That's the essential thing.

If we give w/ any expectations, then that also is not giving in a karmic sense, but it does not negate the good that may come from the act for the individual that is on the receiving end. What the person receiving the assistance does w/ that assistance is their business. If I give a homeless person money for food and what not and they go and drink it up, that is what they do. What others do is out of our control.

My understanding of compassion is twofold: Some people seem to have much more than others. How that came to be is anyone's guess. Upbringing, religious views, culture, who knows? As we become more aware through meditation, we first become more aware of our own suffering, and that leads to an awareness of other's suffering (especially when we realize that others IS us too). In my personal life, when I was suffering, my compassion for others went up. I asked Ken McLeod about this, a Tibetan trained lama who was on a book tour with his book "Wake Up To Your Life", and his statement (which was said in a Zen center in Portland, so that may have had some influence on the brevity of his comment) was "that's just the way it works"

I understood perfectly, and it was much more powerful to hear that than some elaborate, wordy explanation of how it came to be. It was just how it worked. This conversation happened over 20 years ago, and to this day I notice that when I am complacent, my compassion for others is low. When I am suffering, it increases. When I am more diligent in my meditation and mindfulness, it increases.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:24 pm

c.,

cam101+ wrote:When I am more diligent in my meditation and mindfulness, it increases.

Yes, it's bound to. But it's likely not yet karuna, true Compassion. It is (likely) sympathy.

At awakening, and afterward (for as long as an incident or episode of awakening lasts, weeks, months, etc.), true Wisdom and true Compassion will at once dawn.

We're talking about different things, when talking about true Compassion (karuna) and sympathy (which may be the "compassion" defined in dictionaries, and as experienced or delivered by people who are not awakened).

True compassion (karuna) is not really susceptible to mistakes, as it's informed by true Wisdom (prajna). Sympathy, or ordinary compassion, when delivered, can still be guilty of error, i.e., it may not be truly Compassionate at all, as Buddhists teach.

True Compassion, in a situation, is just what Wisdom requires; it needn't even appear "nice". We all know about "tough-love", and sometimes true Compassion can be rough, tough, stuff. What the universe requires is what the universe delivers, spontaneously, and without sentiment ...by virtue of true non-separation (and non-self).

So it is; so it goes.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Avisitor on Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:51 am

cam101+ wrote:Well, even if I were a self righteous, arrogant so and so, if I help someone, then I help someone. The act is not related to the individual giving assistance. This has nothing to do w/ karma, that will work itself out accordingly. So the statement that "I can't see why it matters where compassion comes from. If someone acts compassionately and helps another being, then that is a good thing, some help was rendered" is spot on. That's the essential thing.

So you make a judgement that a person's nature has nothing to do with the act of compassion to help another being??
"if I help someone, then I help someone.
The act is not related to the individual giving assistance.
This has nothing to do w/ karma, that will work itself out accordingly."


Why do you separate it?

There is a story of the scorpion who asked a frog to carry him across the pond
The frog said no because the scorpion would sting him and he would die
The scorpion said he would not because then they would both die from drowning
And so, the frog agrees to take him across the pond
But, as they were crossing the pond, the scorpion stings the frog
And before they both drown, the frog asked why

People do what they do because this is their nature
One shouldn't act to separate oneself from what one truly is

Karma is simply ... what you plant, you will reap
Plant an apple seed and an apple tree will grow ... not an orange tree
What you have done before is what you are now
What you do now is what you will become

Note: I am sorry for putting my opinion out there
Must be the lack of coffee this morning :coffee: :coffee:
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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