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"Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Discussion of Chinese Chán (禪) Buddhism.

Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:01 pm

Joe,
chankin1937 wrote:You dare not answer the question because it would blow your argument to pieces that a person can only become enlightened in the company of a teacher and in a sangha.


Joe wrote: It's clear you're a crank, and an internet troll, and probably also not playing with a full deck. Not the sharpest pencil in the box, either. Such a sorry sad spectacle. Why don't you go elsewhere, and disrupt no more fora with your stupidly idiotic foolishness, and dopey manifesto(s)? Eh?


Hello Joe,
That last post of mine must have really hit home to provoke that silly tirade!
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Avisitor on Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:01 am

chankin1937 wrote:Hello Avisitor,
Not Gotama - the first Buddha.
Colin

Unless you can personally attest to who the first Buddha is, then it is Gotama.
I really don't see you as that old. So, you personally can not be alive during that time.
So what you know is only what you think you believe to be true .. whether it is or not.

You haven't proven to be full of truth and/or honesty ... lacking
So, I will not follow your blind assumptions or read your understanding of something which you have proven to know nothing about ... Zen Buddhism
You and others have only shown that you are full of attacks and lack the true Compassion and Wisdom that comes from real, honest, true practice of Zen Buddhism


Edit: Sorry for this tirade.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:17 am

huh, what first Buddha?? are you listening? ... who's on first, what's on second...



you're lucky that I'm old enough to remember :lol2:
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Caodemarte on Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:00 am

According to the sutras there were countless Buddhas in previous, countless cyclical time cycles. Some are named. Since time is described as beginingless, it is meaningless to ask "who was on first" although Maitreya is on next!

Please, please don't take the sutras literally and squeeze all the meaning out of them by going on a hunt for Maitreya!
:Namaste:
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:03 am

Caodemarte wrote:According to the sutras there were countless Buddhas in previous, countless cyclical time cycles. Some are named. Since time is described as beginingless, it is meaningless to ask "who was on first" although Maitreya is on next!
(Please, please don't take the sutras literally and squeeze all the meaning out of them by going on a hunt for Maitreya! :Namaste: )


precisely my point! :hide:
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Avisitor on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:36 am

So, what is the meaning of no self?
Like Colin, they take things out of context and ascribe their own meaning to the words.
Stop thoughts is not meant as cease mental activity.
It is meant as to stop deluded thinking ....The habit of this deluded mind.
But, let us get back on track of Compassion and wisdom arising from no self.
Does no self mean the lost of identity?
Of course not.
It is just another reference to stopping the deluded mind's habit
To actually see the truth of one's very nature.
As most of us should know, nothing arises independent of anything else.

But, I ramble. Sorry.
Last edited by Avisitor on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:07 pm

Avisitor
chankin1937 wrote: Not Gotama - the first Buddha.


Avisitor wrote: Unless you can personally attest to who the first Buddha is, then it is Gotama.
I really don't see you as that old. So, you personally can not be alive during that time.
So what you know is only what you think you believe to be true .. whether it is or not.


Hello Avisitor,
The Zen canon mentions innumerable Buddhas before Gotama. Therefore there must have been a first. It’s not rocket science to work that out.

You haven't proven to be full of truth and/or honesty ... lacking


Examples please.

So, I will not follow your blind assumptions or read your understanding of something which you have proven to know nothing about ... Zen Buddhism.


Your loss. {And talking about blind assumptions …. you’re full of them.}

You and others have only shown that you are full of attacks and lack the true Compassion and Wisdom that comes from real, honest, true practice of Zen Buddhism.


This is a forum. Debates occur. That some reduce those debates to vindictive personal attacks is regrettable but a fact of life .
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:46 pm

Avisitor
Avisitor wrote : Like Colin, they take things out of context and ascribe their own meaning to the words.

Hello Avisitor,
Have you ever considered the possibility that the words of the Masters actually do mean exactly what they say?

Stop thoughts is not meant as cease mental activity.


You don’t stop them, you allow them to fade away and become aware of what that feels like.
Any mental activity on your part during meditation will disappoint.

It is meant as to stop deluded thinking ....The habit of this deluded mind.


I never find my mind to be “deluded”. Is yours?

But, let us get back on track of Compassion and wisdom arising from no self.
Does no self mean the lost of identity?


The ego is a set of ideas that we must lose in meditation, not because they refer specifically to the self but because they are ideas and all ideas must go.
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby TigerDuck on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:20 pm

Ceasing of mental activities or thought are commonly mistaken as non appearance or non occurrence of them.

But actually, the exact meaning is

The cessation of our ignorance to regard them as this or that. This kind of freedom is not on mercy of their occurrence, while the first one is on their mercy.

The difference is like this:
If there are thoughts or mental activities, chankin is not yet free, and therefore he will wait patiently until all thoughts/mental activities to disappear, then chankin will be free.

But for others who realise emptiness of reality,

While thoughts or mental activities are dancing, he/she is already free before the dancing, during the dancing, or after the dancing.

It doesn't matter how those thoughts or mental activities want to dance.

The difference of understanding is huge.
Last edited by TigerDuck on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Avisitor on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:29 pm

Can a delude man see his own delusion and thus gain freedom?
Yes, but one has to admit to being deluded and work upon the solution .. a sort of faith
Belief in Buddha, his teachings and to treasure the others one meets along the way.
So, yes, deluded, ignorance keeps us that way
And yours is full of such ignorance
It is not an insult. It is a statement of how the way the world is for most people

If you still wish to hold onto these beliefs of yours then that is your problem
But, to expound them like they are the only truth ... well, that is truly ignorance
And to feel you have been attacked by such words shows how little progress you have made toward liberation

Examples? You have put yourself as enlightened.
As your one experience, whatever that may have been, sets you up to teach others??
You have preached your gospel while ignoring any and all suggestions that it is wrong ... and these criticisms come from established Zen teachers
So you set yourself apart as better than even those who are truly on the path toward liberation
Therefore, you have only shown how little there is of your understanding of the true Dharma.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:33 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Have you ever considered the possibility that the words of the Masters actually do mean exactly what they say?

You never have.

Because you have never heard words of masters.

You have read translated words of putative masters of the past. They may indeed have been masters, but you have not heard them, nor met them.

Thus, you have heard no masters.

You ignore the words typed to you by Masters of the present day. At least two Zen Buddhist teachers here have let you know that your interpretations of what constitutes Zen Buddhist practice are faulty, completely wrong. Others too have told you this, here, and that your personal way is an outer-path, not a Buddhist path of any stripe. It is some other religion, entirely.

Thus, although you pretend to value reliance upon masters, you have only your own biases and insecurities to support you.

They are habits and fixations of fantasy that have hardened and gone uncorrected in your chosen isolation over the fifty-plus years of error you brag of.

The fact that you try to drag "Masters" in to support your misconceptions shows that you realize that you do not have a leg to stand on. You quote others incessantly, and have no wisdom of your own.

You thus try to act as a furtive thief, but are actually a liar.

And yet you try to mislead others, too. Criminal. Pitiful, and sinister! You should be gone. Go, now.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:39 pm

chankin1937 wrote:That last post of mine must have really hit home to provoke that silly tirade!

Not silly. Meant in a very heartfelt way. Not a tirade. Words of true compassion, for you to savor, and act on.

Nothing you have written has ever "hit home". You're perversely and consistently a million parsecs "off".

A crank.

Go, now.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:07 pm

Joe
chankin1937 wrote :Have you ever considered the possibility that the words of the Masters actually do mean exactly what they say?


Joe wrote: You have read translated words of putative masters of the past. They may indeed have been masters, but you have not heard them, nor met them.


Hello Joe the heretic,
So Dogen, Hakuin and Hui neng among many others are “putative”?
You are getting desperate. Anyone reading this can see that.

The fact that you try to drag "Masters" in to support your misconceptions shows that you realize that you do not have a leg to stand on.


You deliberately miss the point – again. They do support me.

You quote others incessantly, and have no wisdom of your own.


21st Century Zen.

You thus try to act as a furtive thief, but are actually a liar.


Readers take note of his behaviour. What kind of Buddhist is he?
Colin
!
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:19 pm

chankin1937 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:You thus try to act as a furtive thief, but are actually a liar.

Readers take note of his behaviour. What kind of Buddhist is he? Colin

Truth-telling, covered-in-sawdust, Zen Buddhist; grateful-to-true-lineages for true Dharma.

Work to do for us adults, now, Colin. Go now. Keep from underfoot.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:29 pm

chankin1937 wrote:So Dogen, Hakuin and Hui neng among many others are “putative”?

You impute mastery to them. But you don't know anything of what they are masters of.

Thus your imputation is phony. Vacuous and false. You look for "clothing" -- like all charlatans -- in others.

Name-dropper. Quoter. All the signs of an ignoramus with a hot-air-balloon ego.

Seeking to appropriate others' wisdom, while having none of his "own".

Go soak your head. Elsewhere.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby another_being on Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
chankin1937 wrote:So Dogen, Hakuin and Hui neng among many others are “putative”?

You impute mastery to them. But you don't know anything of what they are masters of.

Thus your imputation is phony. Vacuous and false. You look for "clothing" -- like all charlatans -- in others.

Name-dropper. Quoter. All the signs of an ignoramus with a hot-air-balloon ego.

Seeking to appropriate others' wisdom, while having none of his "own".

Go soak your head. Elsewhere.

--Joe


These comments and exchanges are getting quite personal, not to mention very repetitive and boring. Reruns every day! Isn't anyone else getting tired of it? Aren't you two? I imagine this forum will someday just be you two going back and forth. It's already getting to be that way. Please don't bother replying with excuses or finger pointing. Most likely we've heard it before.
"Some people think they are enlightened, some people think they are not enlightened." -- Denko
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:08 pm

another_being wrote: Please don't bother replying with excuses or finger pointing. Most likely we've heard it before

Thanks, a_b. You said it.

On to better things. Preferably something based on my OP, if you're interested.

Else, start a new thread, please.

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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:46 am

Linda Anderson wrote:I was lucky to meet and practice with Simon once and I don't think he is putting out that energy.... I can feel him in the OP, so let's not add anything.

"Add anything", no.

The way to understand Simon is to subtract everything.

That's the point.

But that only happens through profuse practice.

Prajna and Karuna can arise when the decks (deck) are (is) cleared.

This takes a breakthrough in practice, and help-aplenty by teacher and sangha.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:04 pm

My detractors
No rational criticism of 21st Century Zen or the article on the three selves has ever been posted here. All we read are posts telling me I am not a zenie and I know nothing about Zen.
Without rational arguments these posts are just a waste of space.

The motivation behind this invective is clear. The posters believe that no benefit can be obtained from meditation unless you are seeing a teacher and are member of a sangha.
This I have proved to be an option - not a necessity. The very first Buddha - long before Gotama - could not have had a teacher or a sangha.There is plenty of evidence in the Zen canon to support that view.

If you want to join a club, mix with people of like mind and practice the rituals of traditional Zen then by all means do so. But don’t imagine doing that will in any way enhance your chances of enlightenment. My detractors don’t like that, so they resort to all kinds of senseless invective and tell me to stop posting.

As long as you recognise the fact that conscious mental activity is a tool we use to satisfy our appetites and solve our problems and that it plays no part in our being happy you will succeed. By practicing that in meditation, you will eventually find that the bliss you access that way will eventually filter into your every-day lives. Once you have learned how to meditate, you are on your own. The internet is overflowing with advice if you need it.

In John Blofeld’s book “The Zen Teaching of Huang Po” - The Wan Ling Record Page 119: Huang po, in one of his more lucid moments, describes how to meditate:
“First learn to be entirely unreceptive to sensations arising from external forms, thereby purging your bodies of receptivity to externals.
Second, learn not to pay attention to any distinctions between this and that arising from your sensations, thereby purging your bodies of useless discernments between one phenomenon and another.
Third, take great care to avoid discriminations between terms of pleasant and unpleasant sensations, thereby purging your body of vain discriminations .
Fourth, avoid pondering things in your mind, thereby purging your body of discriminatory cognition.”


In other words, abstain from conscious mental activity. That is the whole of Zen . If you want to know why, read 21st Century Zen on the blue button.
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby [james] on Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:38 pm

Colin,

“First learn to be entirely unreceptive to sensations arising from conscious mental activity, thereby purging your bodies of receptivity to externals.

Second, learn not to pay attention to any distinctions between this and that arising from your conscious mental activity, thereby purging your bodies of useless discernments between one phenomenon and another.

Third, take great care to avoid discriminations between terms of pleasant and unpleasant mental activity, thereby purging your body of vain discriminations.

Fourth, avoid pondering on conscious mental activity, thereby purging your body of discriminatory cognition.”

I have to say though that the entire quote attributed to Huang Po, above, seems off to me. I wonder who he was talking to and why he might have expressed his understanding in this way.
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