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"Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Discussion of Chinese Chán (禪) Buddhism.

Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:46 pm

chankin1937 wrote:The traditional Zen is rest from mental work. .

Colin, you're in the bubble of D.T. Suzuki's emphases on Rinzai Zen Buddhism. You really must get out, more.

And Rinzai Zen Buddhist practice is wonderful. It's clear you know nothing about koan practice from experience. And experience is the way to know anything about it. You also do not know that koan practice is a practice between a student and a teacher.

But Soto Zen Buddhist practice is no walk in the park, either, and an ignorant person should not suppose that it is "rest". Again, please get out and get some fresh air at your local -- or distant -- Zen Buddhist center, where the teacher and sangha will introduce you to true Zen Buddhist practice, and help you refine it. That is, if Zen Buddhism is what you might someday like to practice.

My money is on your staying with "The Relaxation Response", though, and with the "modernized" Hindu "Transcendental Meditation", which both fit the details of what you describe in your depictions of your "meditation". That is, my money is on your never approaching Zen Buddhism, and never learning or tasting zazen. I'm not a gambling person, but a scientist, and these wagers seem from all you write to be a sure thing, and naturally certain. You've made-up your mind.

--Joe

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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Caodemarte on Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:29 pm

I would not so casually assume that Colin's interpretation that D.T. Suzuki would agree that Zen is rest from mental work is correct. Study of Suzuki's work will show that he did not make these basic errors. Suzuki was a very serious, sincere practitioner of Zen as well as a scholar. He is frequently misinterpreted.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:54 pm

Joe,
Joe wrote: And Rinzai Zen Buddhist practice is wonderful. It's clear you know nothing about koan practice from experience. And experience is the way to know anything about it. You also do not know that koan practice is a practice between a student and a teacher.


Hello Joe,
From “The teachings of the Compassionate Buddha” Early discourses, the Dhammapada and later basic writings Edited with commentary by E.A.Burtt.
And on Page 225. The koan device of the Ch’an or Zen school is a question asked by the Master that is intrinsically incapable of being answered in any rational way. Its purpose is to shock those of his disciples who are ready for it into a leap to the super rational insight of which the koan can serve as medium.

However, books aside, fifty years ago I was struggling with the koan “abstain from conscious mental activity” [a question that is intrinsically incapable of being answered in any rational way]; on giving up for the night, I experienced that rebellion. I was given a brief insight into the nature of my original Self. Many people have had this, but the difference is, I thoroughly understood exactly what it was.

Please try not to tell me what I do or do not experience; you have no direct access to my mind.

For beginners, a couple of koans can be beneficial. But to go on interminably struggling with them is not the way.

On page 175 of the same book we find Nagarjuna’s concept of Nirvana:

Bliss consists in the cessation of all thought,
In the quiescence of plurality.


I hope you take my advice seriously and don’t just try to score cheap points off it.
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:47 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Bliss consists in the cessation of all thought,

Colin, you wouldn't like it if you experienced what's indicated by Nagarjuna, above.

You are -- and your writing portends that you shall remain -- a dualist. :cry:

--Joe

p.s. we all have "access to your mind", in what you write here. Or maybe you hadn't thought of that?
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:57 pm

chankin1937 wrote:... fifty years ago I was struggling with the koan “abstain from conscious mental activity” [a question that is intrinsically incapable of being answered in any rational way]; on giving up for the night, I experienced that rebellion. I was given a brief insight into the nature of my original Self. Many people have had this, but the difference is, I thoroughly understood exactly what it was.

Bull-roar. Phony! Bogus; fraud. That is not a koan. No wonder you "struggled".

Neither is it a "question".

And, again, koan-practice is a study between a Zen Buddhist teacher and a student.

To echo Nonin Roshi's question in paraphrase, "what Zen Buddhist teacher confirmed any purported awakening of yours?"

(Phony! Bogus; fraud)... .

:O:

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Avisitor on Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:15 am

I understand what you're saying. And as true as it may be ....
Has anyone ever asked the Buddha whether he was confirmed as awakened by any Zen Buddhist teachers?
Please don't be so judgmental or rather don't be so vocal about being so judgmental?


Just do as my teacher would do ... tell him it is nothing.
Like thoughts, let them come and let them go. Move on and continue your practice as you have been taught!

Edit: Sorry, lost my place there. Didn't mean to speak out so. :hide:
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:45 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Edit: Sorry, lost my place there. Didn't mean to speak out so.

You're excused. ;)

And, I wouldn't say you "lost" anything, just then. You've been so always. Good to see you again. :tongueincheek:

You may know that -- for one to have awakened -- it's important that a skilled master test it, and confirm or disconfirm this, because there are many ways of one ignorantly deluding oneself, if one is in isolation from others. Caution! Don't try this alone, at home.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:31 pm

Hello Joe,
I repeat Avisitor’s question, only in this form. Who tested the first Buddha’s authentic experiences?

The basic tenet of Zen is deducible from an examination of the human thought processes.
Conscious mental activity is a tool we use to solve our problems. We obviously don’t employ it once those problems are solved and that, in us, is happiness. Zen exploits that psychology.

In any event, my practice is not the point at issue here. My explanation of why meditation works is.
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:50 pm

Joe,
chankin1937 wrote:... fifty years ago I was struggling with the koan “abstain from conscious mental activity” [a question that is intrinsically incapable of being answered in any rational way]; on giving up for the night, I experienced that rebellion. I was given a brief insight into the nature of my original Self. Many people have had this, but the difference is, I thoroughly understood exactly what it was.


Joe wrote; Bull-roar. Phony! Bogus; fraud.


If you want authentication, read 21st Century Zen on the blue button.

That is not a koan. No wonder you "struggled".
Neither is it a "question".
And, again, koan-practice is a study between a Zen Buddhist teacher and a student.


So, you don’t even know what a koan is and how it works!
It’s “a question that is intrinsically incapable of being answered in any rational way” and you struggle with it as though it were “a red-hot iron ball lodged in your throat” If you are lucky, this induces a rebellion against conscious mental activity and gives you a direct insight into the goal of Zen – tranquil mind. Sorry, Joe, you’ve wasted a lot of time [and money?] on some outer path.

Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:35 pm

C.,

chankin1937 wrote:I repeat Avisitor’s question, only in this form. Who tested the first Buddha’s authentic experiences

Not you.

But we do!, when we practice correctly, as Shakyamuni Buddha did.

And I think that Shakyamuni Buddha, coming to do Dharma-Combat with a modern or ancient Zen Buddhist master, would have an interesting meeting, and interchange.

But go ahead and test Shakyamuni's awakening yourself. You, and everyone. See a Zen Buddhist teacher before time runs out.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:43 pm

C.,

chankin1937 wrote:It’s “a question that is intrinsically incapable of being answered in any rational way” and you struggle with it as though it were “a red-hot iron ball lodged in your throat” If you are lucky, this induces a rebellion against conscious mental activity and gives you a direct insight into the goal of Zen – tranquil mind.

Nope. That's an idea you became fixated on by reading D.T. Suzuki's impressive popular introductions and glosses (and you added the personal misconception about "goal"). Reading and editing popular accounts is not practice.

What you give as an example from your past is not a koan.

Teachers here will tell you the same thing. Just ask them. And, ask them what an actual koan is. If you want to know!

But real knowing comes with practice. Thus, you will never know (what a koan is, and how it, and the practitioner, works, when working koans).

(woe; alas). :cry:

This is not a "koan"-thread. Pls. reread the OP to see what this thread is about.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby Avisitor on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:59 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Hello Joe,
I repeat Avisitor’s question, only in this form. Who tested the first Buddha’s authentic experiences?

If you followed the story of the Buddha then you will know that his companions, who were also on this kind of quest, tested him.
It was only through the truth of his words and their own experiences that it was verified as much as it can be.
That and all of the people who follow the line and transmission.

The question wasn't posed as a real question but more like a "for instance". Example.
Still, Joe is correct. There are many traps along the way ... self delusion, bliss, you name it
So, it really does need someone who is further along to help
Remember to take refuge in the three Jewels and you won't go wrong

Edit: For those who don't know ...
The three jewels are the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha
So, if you are on this path then you trust the truth of the Buddha and his teachings and treasure those who are along this path with you
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:15 pm

Avisitor wrote:So, if you are on this path then you trust the truth of the Buddha and his teachings and treasure those who are along this path with you

Yes.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:01 pm

Avisitor
chankin1937 wrote:Hello Joe,
I repeat Avisitor’s question, only in this form. Who tested the first Buddha’s authentic experiences?


Avisitor wrote : If you followed the story of the Buddha then you will know that his companions, who were also on this kind of quest, tested him.


Hello Avisitor,
Not Gotama - the first Buddha.
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:00 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Not Gotama - the first Buddha.

Yes, that one. Shakyamuni.

His five teachers tested him.

Literature conveys their response(s) to him in their meeting with him, after his awakening (this was at the very start of Shakyamuni (-Buddha's) 30-year teaching-career).

I'm not suggesting that anyone read it. But just noting that it's out there for ya's.

--Joe

p.s. Anyway, Shakyamuni and his teachers are dead and buried (cremated). What's important is having your teacher teach you correctly in THIS life, and test any supposed awakening. Tests via our written medium from this side of the Pond show that you've been full of hot air for most of the lifetime you write about. Pity. That could be easily corrected, and not just in words by those of us writing here, but in your actual life, where it would "count". But, you are on an outer-path. Far gone onto it, into it, and attached. Readers!, take a lesson!
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby chankin1937 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:20 pm

Joe,
chankin1937 wrote: Not Gotama - the first Buddha.


Joe wrote: Yes, that one. Shakyamuni. His five teachers tested him.
Literature conveys their response(s) to him in their meeting with him, after his awakening (this was at the very start of Shakyamuni (-Buddha's) 30-year teaching-career).


hello Joe,
I don’t believe that you, with your long association with Zen, don’t know that there were many more Buddhas before Gotama. You decide to deliberately misrepresent the facts to score a highly dubious point. You dare not answer the question because it would blow your argument to pieces that a person can only become enlightened in the company of a teacher and in a sangha. Quitei obviously the very first Buddha would be unable to find anyone to authenticate his insights.
The basic psychology of Zen can be deduced by analysing the thought processes of people.
21st Century Zen on the blue button does just that.

I think this gives us an insight into your motivation in this forum. You intend to discredit me at all costs, regardless of the deliberately introduced flaws in your arguments.
You have often warned people to take no notice of me; well, I think you have clearly demonstrated that it would be unwise to take seriously anything you post here.

Extracts from “The teachings of the Compassionate Buddha”Early discourses, the Dhammapada and later basic writings Edited with commentary by E.A.Burtt.[ page 53.]
In Ashvagosha’s “Life of the Buddha” The Tathagata says ,
“No teacher have I. None need I venerate and none must I despise. Nirvana have I now obtained, and I am not the same as others are. Quite by myself, you see, have I the Dharma won. Completely have I understood what must be understood, though others failed to understand it That is the reason why I am a Buddha.”
Colin
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:36 pm

chankin1937 wrote:... there were many more Buddhas before Gotama

Yes, there are said to have been.

And probably it's so.

I believe that every small community, in very ancient times, had a "Buddha". A head of the community, in whom were concentrated the ways and culture of the tribe. Able to pass all this on to a suitable successor. And so it went.

Some things never change.

And I hope some things never do.

If you visit a Zen Buddhist teacher, you'll meet such a person.

best,

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:47 pm

chankin1937 wrote:You dare not answer the question because it would blow your argument to pieces that a person can only become enlightened in the company of a teacher and in a sangha.

Colin, every one of the Ch'an and Zen Buddhist masters of the past who you quote practiced (monastically, at that) with teacher and sangha, awakened, and had the awakening confirmed by the teacher.

That's the way it's done in authentic Zen Buddhist practice. But you haven't cottoned to this, yet.

You've missed out on it.

Yet, you quote these guys as if you would try to force them to agree that your outer-path is just peachy.

It's clear you're a crank, and an internet troll, and probably also not playing with a full deck. Not the sharpest pencil in the box, either. Such a sorry sad spectacle.

Why don't you go elsewhere, and disrupt no more fora with your stupidly idiotic foolishness, and dopey manifesto(s)? Eh?

Absolve it all. Go away, ...and take up Zen Buddhist practice with a living, three-dimensional teacher, and sangha, as your heroes did. It's the Human thing to do! (not sure, but I don't think that lets you out).

Go.

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:22 pm

chankin1937 wrote:I don’t believe that you, with your long association with Zen, <snip>

Well, no. Not "Zen", but Zen Buddhist practice. I have no knowledge of mystical, amorphous, cloudy outer-paths called "zen".

I admit to a long association with Zen Buddhist practice, though. If one has made vows, yes, one sticks with it, and the association gets longer and longer, endlessly saving sentient beings, until the clock runs out. And, then, the Bodhisattva starts again, after perhaps checking in briefly, or for kalpas (who knows... ) with the home-office, if there's any such-a-thing.

(see all my old, deceased relatives, teachers, and cats again, in a little reunion, before beaming to the next Planet, or epoch of Earth -- Travel, and all expenses, paid -- not a bad gig -- couldn't have been signed by the Team without proper coaching).

Work to do,

--Joe
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Re: "Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:46 am

"Wisdom and Compassion Arise from No-Self"


To 'simplify' the matter, no-self is another (expedient) term for the transient,
and since whatever arises or is manifest is by default transient....

so ofcourse constructing a sense of self is false, on the other hand it's a part of biology, we couldn't survive without it.
So just seeing it for what it is and don't grant it any reality, is enough.

No reason to make it into another self/no-self boring topic which always shows one's seperation issues with one's own fabrication divisions in mind, which is another illusion, for which the expedient of no-self ironically is a tool to uncover ones obstacles, it's not intended to get philosophical about at all.

So back to the topic of no-self which stands on itself (pun intended) and has nothing to do with self vs no-self, yes?
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