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25th Hexagram; 4th line

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25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby deci belle on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:22 pm

Evidently, there is more than enough energy!! It is inherent; not obtained circumstantially as a result of proscribed techniques or rote practice. Realizing a sufficiency of energy capable of subtle adaption is a matter of inner clarity whereby one helps oneself independently.

Another reading implied that it is possible to have too much energy (that others so inclined will try to take advantage of or use to mislead or seduce one so endowed, if one is other than singly simple-minded, i.e.: self-possessed of an innocence consisting of honesty within oneself naturally inclusive of objective reality). This is to mean that social vampirism is instinctual and succumbing to its influence is one's own fault.

Chih-hsü wrote:

The fourth yang is insight with concentration, more than enough to help oneself. This is finding inherent concentration and insight; it is not attained after practice.

—from 25. No Error, page 113 of Thomas Cleary’s translation of Chih-hsu Ou-i’s The Buddhist I Ching (Chou i chàn chieh).
ISBN 0-87773-408-9

Chih-hsü lived from 1599~1655.




ed note: add 2nd half of 2nd paragraph
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Chrisd on Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:05 pm

Great.

Or the other person could be told and/or recognize that he or she is draining the energy w/ whatever form of social vampirism, correct?

That would be a kind thing to do.

Maybe the person is unaware of that he or she is doing it.

You can take it on yourself, or focus on helping the other person.
May this poor person be free of suffering and the ignorance that perpetuates it.
I'm sure no healthy person would want to be a vampire.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby deci belle on Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:13 pm

Hi Chris❤︎!! Thank you so much for your response, mon ami.

…well, I suppose it's best to be responsible for helping oneself (to stop leaking energy in the first place) before one should endeavor to help others, mostly because it's true. So it is in keeping with the functionally effective spirit of zen expressing unequivocally fierce independence that is acceptance of one's responsibility for one's own potential existence, even if that is simply residing in spiritual potential, and leaving ramifications to their own device.

Some would assume that this is the pinnacle of buddhism, but that would be a monumental error of the most gross proportion!! To be able to abide in acceptance of one's responsibility for one's own potential existence, even if that is simply residing in spiritual potential, and leaving ramifications to their own device, is one thing, but to cling to that is no better than delusion. Why? Because it is the same as delusion. Buddhas do not cling to either extreme, so they take the middle way. This is the Supreme Vehicle, which is not a matter of avoidance. It is inconceivability.

The OP has two points. One is that potential is inherent, not the result of practice. Buddhism is not an occupational distinction. It is arriving at reality as is without dwelling on relativities of self and other. Arrival is neither sameness nor difference within or without the totality of creation.

When you yourself enter reality, the whole world reverts to this, which is not to say that conditions are other than what they are.

The other point is that shit happens. Shit is the shit whether it is wet or dry on a stick or not. Those who see potential see shit in its potential state as it manifests. Adapting to circumstances is not a matter of education or reprimanding or manifesting a force of external kindnesses being brutalities equal to what I have described as vampirism. Just seeing potential is enough. That in itself is the (raw and unrefined) transformation of polluted energy. No one needs to be corrected intrinsically. It depends on the time. All one has in this world is will and patience. Awareness is not one's own.

Beyond seeing potential, in terms of karmic manifestation, there is (on the part of adept response) filling gaps, deflecting attacks, hooking and clamping, holding firm and releasing, advancing and retreating— all these and more are the external aspects of subtle adaption to conditional phenomena. You will notice that proscribing a value of right and wrong is not indicated in and of itself, though some aspects of the above examples of response do take that remedial course into account.

What is unseen is the spiritual vehicle of buddhas which does not admit of one's own energy. This is the working definition of selfless attainment. It is neither difficult nor easy. Realizing a sufficiency of innate energy capable of subtle adaption is a matter of inner clarity whereby one helps oneself independently by using conditions to further develop one's endless path of gradual clarification along with conditions. The world is the sage is the basis of self-help. Sagehood has no before or after, this being entry into inconceivability.

This is independent of one's personal sudden realization of the absolute. Therefore, before and after is not to be distinguished in the course of subtle adaption to events in terms of external ramifications. Why? Knowledge is immediate, and each moment contains the inconceivable potential of the absolute already. So it is as I mentioned, in that it is unnecessary to distinguish particulars (before, after, self, other, right, wrong, good, bad,etc…) in the course of subtle adaption. If it is, then it is not subtle adaption. Turning the light around is a matter of seeing through phenomena without denying characteristics.

So one deals with the world on its terms, impersonally, according to events, without relying on one's own power. One "steals" the power of potential inherent in situations themselves by not acting on projections of self and other through selfless nopsychologically aware subtle observation.

Spiritual subtlety is by virtue of which seeing potential is not relative to the self. Knowledge being immediate is not the person. It is possible to arrive at this incipience of natural unity with evolution by ceasing one's own vampiric relationship with creation. It is ego who is sucking vital inherent energy from the true inherent self. It is not that there is necessarily another who does so. In such a case, who is to be admonished, and who would dare to take it upon oneself to make an effective address? Ultimately, who is addressing and accepting?

Ultimately, it is through self-help that the world becomes the sage.




ed note: add to first line, change penultimate line
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby TigerDuck on Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:47 am

Actually what is the practical usage of i-ching?

I read buddhist i-ching by Thomas Cleary, about 1/4.

I got the impression, it teaches us when to proceed, when to wait, etc.

And i found it useless, because anybody also know that.

But may be i miss the point.

Does anyone know the use of it?

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby macdougdoug on Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:42 pm

I thought it was like a crystal ball or tarot cards, they can help in making decisions
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:02 am

you guys, the I Ching is not what you think... it has nothing to do with social vampires, it tells you nothing about how to proceed, it is not a crystal ball. No worries, you have been given but a crumb when you need to taste the muffin... thanks to Deci Belle who offers an alternate reality. If you have any interest, go for a holistic perception as we do with meditation. It is a rich and ancient source of wisdom leaning towards the Tao combined with practice... and if you are aligned with it, it's as if you are speaking. This is not a trivial practice and not worthy of crumbs. The fourth line is key here.... references to seduction and social vampires are not relevant ... find your own relationship to the hexagram.

"The I Ching also known as the Book of Change represents a profound effort on the part of it's authors to observe the relationship between the behavior of humans and the constantly changing structure of the universe. The basic assumption put forth by the I Ching is that change (action) is not an isolated phenomena, but in fact affects every other facet of existence synchronistically." ~The Illustrated I Ching, RL Wing

sound familiar?

further, the I Ching quite naturally becomes a powerful perception tool..... just like the sutras, it's beyond words and letters, and koan commentaries. I've used it on and off since 1988. The ancient Chinese is a mystery as such in translation yet It's always felt like I'm speaking to myself but I didn't know it. It is no more than a reflection of the world around us and how we relate to it.... if we pay attention we may notice a fresh view. If the Tarot is used properly it can function in this way as can many other appearances.

There are 64 hexagrams... a hexagram consists of 6 lines ... thus two trigrams with 3 lines each, in various configurations of smooth and broken lines like this: ------ or --- --- and then there are transformations where one kind of line will change from smooth to broken ... like changing to chapter 2/impermance. The imagery is taken from nature, mountains, clouds, water, heaven and earth, etc. Typically, coins are tossed to determine each line. (I have ancient Chinese coins) Sometimes, just looking at the lines reveals an energy at play.... then the reading seems aligned with the lines. It is good to soften around the ancient patriarchy, intellectual aspect and ancient languaging, still, it speaks loud and clear.

Here is the beginning image for Hexagram 25, the lines

------- ..... above, Ch'ien The creative. heaven ... upper trigram
-------
------- ........ fourth line

--- --- .... below, Chen The arousing thunder ... lower trigram
--- ---
-------
:
25 - Innocence
Innocence brings exceptional progress. There is an advantage in correct persistence. If someone does not act appropriately, it would be a mistake. There is no advantage toward moving to a goal.

The arousing (thunder) rolls under the creative (heaven) aligning all of mater with its natural state of Innocence. The ancient rulers, therefore, made a strong and proper alignment with the times, thus nourishing the outside world.
~ The Illustrated I Ching


seems to me that this could have been written yesterday, today and tomorrow like butter melting on a hot rock. Sooooo simple, don't be fooled by others.

here's another translation by Wilhelm/Baynes which is older yet well known... I am excerpting heavily:
25 - Wu Wang / Innocence (The Unexpected)
Ch'ien, heaven, is above; Chen, movement, is below. The lower trigram Chen is under the influence the influence of the strong line it has received from above, from heaven. (((the fourth line))) When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For wherever counscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocene of nature have been lost. Nature that is not directed by the spirit is not true nature but degenerate nature. Starting out with the idea of the natural, the train of thought in part goes somewhat further and thus the hexagram includes also the idea of the unintentional or unexpected.

The Judgement
Innocence, supreme success
Perseverance furthers,
If someone is not as he should be,
He has misfortune,
And it does not further him
To undertake anything.

((there is much more...))


I can agree, shit happens. :heya:
Last edited by Linda Anderson on Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:52 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby TigerDuck on Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:15 am

Ok, let's say you are in depression wanting to a new car.

How can I Ching knowledge help you in this situation?

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:23 am

25 - Innocence
Innocence brings exceptional progress. There is an advantage in correct persistence. If someone does not act appropriately, it would be a mistake. There is no advantage toward moving to a goal.

The arousing (thunder) rolls under the creative (heaven) aligning all of mater with its natural state of Innocence. The ancient rulers, therefore, made a strong and proper alignment with the times, thus nourishing the outside world.
~ The Illustrated I Ching


this is not knowledge just as practice isn't.
Not last night,
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:33 am

If I am depressed wanting a new car and I get the 25th hexagram:
Linda Anderson wrote:
25 - Innocence
Innocence brings exceptional progress. There is an advantage in correct persistence. If someone does not act appropriately, it would be a mistake. There is no advantage toward moving to a goal.

The arousing (thunder) rolls under the creative (heaven) aligning all of mater with its natural state of Innocence. The ancient rulers, therefore, made a strong and proper alignment with the times, thus nourishing the outside world.
~ The Illustrated I Ching



I would see that "innocence" is the key to my problem. I thought I was depressed because I didn't have a new car, but according to the I Ching "There is no advantage" in moving toward this goal, as it is a mistake as I am not acting appropriately. The real problem to my depression is too much maturity, or experience/knowledge resulting in Judgement.

Of course, as Linda correctly pointed out, I am speaking as someone with practically 0 interest and knowledge of the I Ching. I just played with it a couple of times out of curiosity, I am more familiar with the rubiks cube.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:10 pm

macdougdoug wrote:If I am depressed wanting a new car and I get the 25th hexagram:
Linda Anderson wrote:
25 - Innocence
Innocence brings exceptional progress. There is an advantage in correct persistence. If someone does not act appropriately, it would be a mistake. There is no advantage toward moving to a goal.

The arousing (thunder) rolls under the creative (heaven) aligning all of mater with its natural state of Innocence. The ancient rulers, therefore, made a strong and proper alignment with the times, thus nourishing the outside world.
~ The Illustrated I Ching



I would see that "innocence" is the key to my problem. I thought I was depressed because I didn't have a new car, but according to the I Ching "There is no advantage" in moving toward this goal, as it is a mistake as I am not acting appropriately. The real problem to my depression is too much maturity, or experience/knowledge resulting in Judgement.

Of course, as Linda correctly pointed out, I am speaking as someone with practically 0 interest and knowledge of the I Ching. I just played with it a couple of times out of curiosity, I am more familiar with the rubiks cube.


ok. If anyone else is interested... two things. Words like appropriate and advantage are part of what I think is the partriarchal languaging thru translation. Look at the second translation, quite diff. Don't get stuck in words. For me, the image is a non-conceptual way of pointing out concepts like desire, greed, clinging and impermanence, etc.

Second, The real key is the natural occurence, in this case, lightening... arousing thunder under creative heaven aligning all of mater... a natural state of innocence. This is meditation. This is "as it is". thus, the image of lightening stands on it's own as a lesson in nature and meditation. ofc, there are 63 more....

perhaps this gives you a flavor....

linda
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby deci belle on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:42 am

Monsieur Duck wrote:

Actually what is the practical usage of I-Ching?

I read buddhist i-ching by Thomas Cleary, about 1/4.

I got the impression, it teaches us when to proceed, when to wait, etc.

And i found it useless, because anybody also know that.

But may be i miss the point.

Does anyone know the use of it?


***********************************************************************************************

In response to this I can say that the proper use of the I Ching is in using it as a mirror. Its long-concurrent use as a prognostic device is the sugar-coating which has helped it survive the many cultural purges throughout the 5000 year history of Chinese culture.

There is knowledge imbedded in the symbols predating the trigrametric signs of Fu Hsi and the order of the gua arranged by King Wen of the Chou Dynasty and his son, who assigned the lines.

The Buddhist I Ching is keyed toward a very high aspect of Chan practice, with an analysis tending toward a description of various levels of its teaching's application in terms of social, theoretic, essential and enlightening activities in the world by practitioners of living potential.

I find its perspective brilliant and highly original.

The Taoist I Ching (another of Thomas Cleary's classic translations) is basically a glossary of types of time (as they all are), but that volume's particular emphasis is in describing the object of one's concern as energetic potential divorced of intellectualism and emotionalism in terms of degrees of gravity and levity. It helps one learn to view situations beyond the perspective of the personality.

Using the I Ching is a learned art. It's not for everyone, nor is it a panacea. It's a tool, plain and simple. People of the highest potential have no need for it~ so you may be on to something, Monsieur Duck!! heehee!!❤︎❤︎

I got the impression, it teaches us when to proceed, when to wait.
Vous gets a star for that!!

And that is a verrrry guuud thing!! As such, it can be used as a ladder straight to heaven. The timing of advance and withdrawal is the key to gaining familiarity with taoist spiritual alchemy, by becoming adept at recognizing reality through subtle adaption by one's inherent enlightening function.



ed note:add word "learn" to 5th paragraph
Last edited by deci belle on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby deci belle on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:52 am

I'm very happy for the responses you contributed, Linda~ *zmoochez*
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby deci belle on Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:55 pm

Let me restate my (edited) response to Chris' post for clarification of my direct intent, as this thread is not about the I Ching, nor the 25th hexagram, nor any of its lines in particular. It is about my raison d'etre (on this forum)~ which is expressing the inherent enlightening function of human being, called impersonal stabilized conscious awareness, buddhahood, wizardry; the functional characteristic of spiritually awakened adepts and sages.


As it’s best to be responsible for helping oneself before one can actually help others, mostly because it’s true, therefore being unminding in the course of events is the ancient directive for beginners with authentic, profound entry into the path of prior illuminates. So it is in keeping with the functionally effective spirit of zen expressing unequivocally fierce independence that is acceptance of one’s personal responsibility for one’s own potential existence, even if that is simply residing in spiritual potential, and leaving ramifications to their own device.

Some would assume that this is the pinnacle of buddhism, but that would be a monumental error of the most gross proportion!! To be able to abide in acceptance of one’s personal responsibility for one’s own potential existence, even if that is simply residing in spiritual potential, and leaving ramifications to their own device, is one thing, but clinging to personal enlightenment real or imagined is no better than delusion.

Why? Because clinging is itself delusion. Buddhas do not cling. Neither is there dwelling in either extreme, so they take to the middle way, which is what taoism calls “floating around in the center of the compass”. This is the Supreme Vehicle, which is not a matter of avoidance. It is inconceivability.

The OP has two points. One is that potential is inherent, not the result of practice. Buddhism is not an occupational distinction. It is arriving at reality as is without dwelling on relativities of self and other. Arrival is neither sameness nor difference within or without the totality of creation.

When you yourself enter reality, the whole world reverts to this, which is not to say that conditions are other than what they are. This is the meaning of the saying, the world is the sage.

The other point is that shit happens. Even more to the point, shit is the shit. Why? Those who see potential see through shit in its potential state as it manifests. In terms of karma, this is emptiness; in terms of the shit, this is potential unrefined elixir.

Do you see potential or not?

Adapting to circumstances is not a matter of remedial education or reprimanding or manifesting a force of external kindnesses essentially being brutalities equal to what I have described as vampirism. Just seeing potential is enough. If one does not see potential, one has no business moralizing on another's account (especially in terms of harboring views of self and other). The shit constituting karmic evolution in itself is the (raw and unrefined) alchemic transformation of polluted energy already. No one needs to know in the course of carrying out this subtle adaption. It depends on the time. All one has in this world is will and patience. The Dharma-eye of true awareness is utterly impersonal; it is not one’s own. This Center has no location.

That's why I say that the Supreme Vehicle is not a matter of avoidance of extremes— It is inconceivability. Buddha said that reality is void of pattern. That there is psychological clinging, however subtle, by the personality believing in its personal existence, is in itself extremism. That the ancients speak of there being the two extremes is a matter of words only. Upon arrival, one sees for oneself that, ultimately, there is no thing. Where would extremity abide? "Mind is one" and "East Mountain walks on water" are just words. One must endeavor to see this for oneself. Absolute independence and searing audacity are the basis of the will to enlightenment. If no one knows your single-minded concentration on essential nature, then you are close. Don't tell anyone.

Finally, it is one's own vampirism which must be eliminated in order to realize one's own enlightening function. It was the 4th line (in another of the I Ching commentaries) that indicated there is the potential for energetic vampirism when one realizes innate potential (grossly expressed as excessive energy). As I wrote before, it is not that there is another who would seek to take advantage of inherent potential energy. The number one sickness of students is mistaking the thieving human mentality for the true self.

The fact that the conditioned consciousness of the individual is necessarily already making its living in terms of its own vampirism of subtle reality is the point. This habitual leakage is what must be stopped.

As I wrote in the OP:
It is not that there is necessarily another who does so. In such a case, who is to be admonished, and who would dare to take it upon oneself to make an effective address? Ultimately, who is addressing and accepting?


*********************************************************************************************

I would welcome anyone to continue further discussion on this thread pertaining to the import of this subject matter.❤︎
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:38 pm

Hello All,
The I-Ching, Tarot, tossing a coin or any other attempt to get guidance to the appropriate solution to a problem is just passing the buck. You have a brain – use it.
However , there is one way to use such devices.
When you have tossed the coin and seen the result , assess how you feel. If you feel slightly disappointed then go against the advice haphazardly gained. If you feel good about it then that is what you wanted all along.
Source--Amy Farra-Fowler – The Big Bang.
Colin
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:48 pm

TD,

TigerDuck wrote:And i found it useless, because anybody also know that.

But may be i miss the point.

Does anyone know the use of it?

Some say it's "to sharpen our 'intuition' ".

Many things can be used for that. Some lean toward astrology. Others to prayer. Some lean toward fasting.

My "take" is that divination is just divining what one has already decided. And, nothing wrong with that... .

--Joe
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:21 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:My "take" is that divination is just divining what one has already decided. And, nothing wrong with that... .
--Joe


yes, that's one way to put it. Jung would say synchronicity. I think of it as talking to myself. Just like any divination, it is the nature of one's meditation that can manifest a good relationship. One's brain, in this case, is a useful observer, nothing more. DB makes some good observations.

It's not for everybody, anymore than I can tell you about the taste of water.

linda
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:26 pm

Thanks. Good to see you Linda.

I'm thinking now of "the taste of fasting".
(reminds me of Hakuin's "The sound of one hand") :Namaste:

--Joe
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:45 pm

by George, you've got it. :Namaste:

just remember, there's nothing to get in the inconceivable. I know you do.
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:26 pm

CHAPTER 24



The I Ching is good for the meteorologists of the mind. But for the rest of us, we just enjoy the sunsets and rain as they arrive.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: 25th Hexagram; 4th line

Postby Chrisd on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:30 am

deci belle wrote:Hi Chris❤︎!! Thank you so much for your response, mon ami.

…well, I suppose it's best to be responsible for helping oneself (to stop leaking energy in the first place) before one should endeavor to help others, mostly because it's true. So it is in keeping with the functionally effective spirit of zen expressing unequivocally fierce independence that is acceptance of one's responsibility for one's own potential existence, even if that is simply residing in spiritual potential, and leaving ramifications to their own device.


Hiya db :heya:

In my understanding, independence is not a Zen view. Zen is part of the mahayana school, which emphasizes practicing for all beings. I'm positively curious to find out where you get the idea that Zen emphasizes (fierce) independence :peace:
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