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Rumi

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Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:44 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:I wonder if Rumi knew that above the brow is a living jewel.


I don't know Joe, it seems he's found himself, or God found himself and keeps experiencing this in the totality of manifestation itself. He was not afraid of "dying" he knew he never became anything more or less by it. I can't comment on the foundation or Source.
Will report back. :heya:
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Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:07 pm

fuki,

In reading Rumi from time to time over four decades, I have the impression that he is in the condition that my teacher Sheng Yen calls "Unified Mind".

This is a condition in which one finds a "Oneness" of oneself and of all things, and might even (probably) experience a sense of something that one might call "God".

My teacher stressed that this is a good condition, and shows at least that one has clarified the mind considerably and removed oneself from the starting condition he calls "Scattered Mind".

But in Ch'an, "Unified Mind" is not a stopping place. There is more practice to do in order to realize true nature (for more about that, see a Teacher!)

In Unified Mind, such as it's clear Rumi resides in, "Oneness" is strongly experienced, and "Love" (one of the dualistic emotions or sentiments) is strong. This is not the state of No-Mind, or original mind, but it is nonetheless "good" in the practical-upshot sense that at least Love is an antidote to Hate.

Rumi is a good example of a poet moored at the condition or stage of "Unified Mind". Had he gone further (deeper) in practice, who knows if he would have ever written anything at all. Had he gone deeper, the world today might not even know that a fellow "Jalaluddin Rumi" ever existed. In that case, we might have to read Kabir, instead.

--Joe

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:I wonder if Rumi knew that above the brow is a living jewel.


I don't know Joe, it seems he's found himself, or God found himself and keeps experiencing this in the totality of manifestation itself. He was not afraid of "dying" he knew he never became anything more or less by it. I can't comment on the foundation or Source.
Will report back. :heya:
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Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:24 pm

Thanks Joe, that is what I meant with "God" or "Unity" which is a transient mutable state of That lost in That.

Associations about no-mind and "unborn" popped up but I didn't want to mention it, as you might know I'm experienced with "unity" even though saying that is a contradiction in terms, also interesting that reading things, say a year or month ago changes understanding, ofcourse due to interpretation but more importantly when it is recognized due to experience and it's no longer a conceptual interpretation, so I'm positive I understand Rumi. Who knows perhaps he did practise further and decided to keep his mouth shut. ;)

I told you I'd report back, perhaps in this form perhaps in another. No worries I'm aware when imagination runs wild, as I might feel pain but are not stung by it, so too can I read stories in the same manner, I notice it but do not grant it any "attention" same applies to mutable experiences.
I think Rumi's love was Unconditional (non-dualistic) but I can't check his motives since I don't know the fellow personally.

ps I love lalla too (Lalleshwari)

Ofcourse no one speaks of "it" whoever opens his mouth, is not "it".
I think you know what I mean with "it" here, as nothing can reach it.
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Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:I think Rumi's love was Unconditional (non-dualistic) but I can't check his motives since I don't know the fellow personally.

His love was for "The Beloved". That is, his love was for God.

This too is pointing at his being in the condition of Unified Mind (not Original Mind, or no-mind ).

I mentioned nothing about "his motives", and don't understand why to bring that in. But I can only say that it appears that in the Sufism of his time, there was no method of approaching Original Mind. That requires Ch'an methods. Thus I'll say that his motives or motivations were those afforded or allowed him by Islam and Sufism just as he found it. He went as far as he could go with it / them. He had not met Ch'an.

fukasetsu wrote:Ofcourse no one speaks of "it" whoever says it, is not "it".
I think you know what I mean with "it" here, as nothing can reach it.

I can neither confirm nor deny this, and, more especially, neither do I pretend to understand it, Marcel, sorry.

But one can indeed "reach" the condition of Original Mind, the Mind of Buddhas and Patriarchs. The reason is that it is here, now. Just covered-up (in most people). It's necessary to allow everything else to drop, and there it is. "Just" uncover it. "Disrobe" it. Again, this requires Ch'an techniques, and the Three Treasures. Rumi did not have them (to work with).

:Namaste:

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Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:12 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:His love was for "The Beloved". That is, his love was for God.

Yes but the Beloved, is everything permeating everything, so love "of" is love of not-two or the "One" appearing as distinctions in mind, how could Love love itself, or a thing know itself, for such we need the imaginary seperation of coming together or going apart, the recognition that there is no such thing is "The Beloved" which puts an end to (small) mind and fear. Love for the Beloved is none other then the Beloved "loving the Beloved". With motives I mean that ppl often seem to love unconditionally but there are hidden motives so love is then conditioned yet only appearing to be unconditional by one's interpretation, that's how people end up joining cults do they not? Or praise some imaginary God-figure outside of themselves. And even Zen Teachers claimed "awakened" still covered the Original Mind with the 3 poisons, again don't assume anything or anyone to have "awakened" but observe their actions and behaviour in everyday activity.
I'm thankful for Ch'an and the teachers of Ch'an, but the Ch'an of others is still "outside Ch'an", since things are hardly ever what they appear to be. I focus on my "own" dream instead, but no doubt the tools of Ch'an serve as an opening or uncovering.
Someone's "religion" is to be known in their actions and behaviour, not in the name of his school.

fukasetsu wrote:Ofcourse no one speaks of "it" whoever says it, is not "it".
I think you know what I mean with "it" here, as nothing can reach it.


Sorry, I was referring to the "Absolute" or the "sound of one hand clapping" Buddhist scripture and talk of Ch'an Teachers are contradictionary, according to one eating a cookie is eating the Absolute, according to another it's ridiculous and a sign of delusion to say that eating the grass is eating the Dharmakaya. That's why "Wu" is such a good tool to use, and all expedients to dissolve temporary fixations and dwellings of mind. Speaking of the "Absolute" is a superfluous ingredient anyhow. Forgive me for entertaining it.
I see the dream as a dream and have no motive to "not dream" yet I sit and practise, why? I've forgotten.

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Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:01 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Someone's "religion" is to be known in their actions and behaviour, not in the name of his school.

Let's be a little logical, and not emotional, there. Just for a moment. If Ch'an methods were not needed, they would not have been developed. And they'd be interchangeable with methods of other traditions. But the fact is, they are not interchangeable. And, they are needed (if one is to realize Original Mind).

Rumi clearly was lodged in Unified Mind. No blame at all! As I wrote, he used what he had, in Sufi Islam. He's a beautiful exemplar of it.

"A difference, if it is to be real difference, must make a difference" (as one of the Pragmatist School philosophers in USA taught: it was Charles Pierce, I think). And the Ch'an- (Zen-, Son-, Thien- ) Buddhist methods make a difference. Else, people here would not come to this website at all. There'd be no interest. And it might be called "Zoroastrian Forum International" ("ZFI").

"Q.E.D.",

--Joe
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Rumi

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:06 am

And how did Rumi find himself in whatever state he was in? As far as I can tell it was all about finding a suitable teacher. I have never seen any explanation of the practises (meditation?) involved - apart from the spinning if we consider the whirling dervishes.

I have personally stayed at a sufi monastery in Scotland where we were invited to sit for a while (20 minutes?) in meditation (just after reading a text) on a home made meditation stool.
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Re: Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:36 pm

macdougdoug wrote:And how did Rumi find himself in whatever state he was in? As far as I can tell it was all about finding a suitable teacher. I have never seen any explanation of the practises (meditation?) involved - apart from the spinning if we consider the whirling dervishes.


Right no, or yes. Just sharing some poetry sorry to have you moving off-topic posts again, the split wasn't needed, deletion would have been OK too, but no biggy, thanks.
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Re: Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:29 pm

Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:And how did Rumi find himself in whatever state he was in? As far as I can tell it was all about finding a suitable teacher. I have never seen any explanation of the practises (meditation?) involved - apart from the spinning if we consider the whirling dervishes.

I have personally stayed at a sufi monastery in Scotland where we were invited to sit for a while (20 minutes?) in meditation (just after reading a text) on a home made meditation stool.

Interesting, Doug! I practiced with the Sufis in New York (City) for five years. This was with a teacher (Sheikh) of the Mevlevi Order, and I learned and practiced a good many of their practices. We could discuss some of this if there's interest. I can recall and can probably name and describe about a dozen practices: It's a good long time ago (1973-1977or 8), but the memories are happy ones, and persistent. I never formally became a Sufi (did not become a mureed (sp?: murid?), and so never received a Sufi name (unfortunately).

THANK YOU!, for splitting-off this conversation also into this dedicated thread of it's own. I think -- probably as you do, too -- that it may be valuable and interesting, so it's good to feature it, and not leave it to lie in obscurity behind another topic. I hope more folks will come in if they have appreciation for Rumi and for Sufi Islam (the mystical-School of Islam, for those who have not met Sufism).

And I'm grateful, too, that you didn't delete anything. Nice bit of Administration/Moderation; kudos!

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:47 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:And I'm grateful, too, that you didn't delete anything. Nice bit of Administration/Moderation; kudos!


Joe's speech "convinced" me, I'll kudo it too.
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Re: Rumi

Postby lobster on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:00 am

I have no idea if Rumi went as far or beyond the annihilation of annihilation (the emptiness of emptiness or anatta minus skanda, returning to the market place/mountain etc) but he seems like a nice buoy.
http://razarumi.com/fana-when-the-ego-gets-annihilated/

:dance:
Maybe some zeniths can organise a Scottish retreat for those interested in Nothing?
http://beshara.org/contact/beshara-trust/

:ghug:

https://networkologies.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/fana-sufisms-notion-of-self-annihilation-or-why-nirvana-is-samsara-in-mahayana-buddhism/
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Re: Rumi

Postby zenci on Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:05 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:And how did Rumi find himself in whatever state he was in? As far as I can tell it was all about finding a suitable teacher. I have never seen any explanation of the practises (meditation?) involved - apart from the spinning if we consider the whirling dervishes.

I have personally stayed at a sufi monastery in Scotland where we were invited to sit for a while (20 minutes?) in meditation (just after reading a text) on a home made meditation stool.

Interesting, Doug! I practiced with the Sufis in New York (City) for five years. This was with a teacher (Sheikh) of the Mevlevi Order, and I learned and practiced a good many of their practices. We could discuss some of this if there's interest. I can recall and can probably name and describe about a dozen practices: It's a good long time ago (1973-1977or 8), but the memories are happy ones, and persistent. I never formally became a Sufi (did not become a mureed (sp?: murid?), and so never received a Sufi name (unfortunately).

THANK YOU!, for splitting-off this conversation also into this dedicated thread of it's own. I think -- probably as you do, too -- that it may be valuable and interesting, so it's good to feature it, and not leave it to lie in obscurity behind another topic. I hope more folks will come in if they have appreciation for Rumi and for Sufi Islam (the mystical-School of Islam, for those who have not met Sufism).

And I'm grateful, too, that you didn't delete anything. Nice bit of Administration/Moderation; kudos!

:Namaste:,

--Joe


Joe,

I would be very interested to hear what kind of practices you did with the Sufis and how you compare them with Zen.
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Re: Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:50 pm

zenci,

zenci wrote:I would be very interested to hear what kind of practices you did with the Sufis and how you compare them with Zen.

Thanks. Oh, I do not compare the Sufi practices with the practices of Zen Buddhism. Nor contrast them.

But I'm grateful to have had them, and to have benefited from them and from the teachings and leadership of the sheikh and the companionship and comradery of the group of murids surrounding the sheikh.

The teacher, or sheikh, said that he felt himself to be very much of the same spirit as the Zen Buddhist masters of the past, by the way, as much as he felt obvious familial kinship in his Sufi lineage and succession. A result of this was that when we held meditation retreats together, he modeled them exactly like a Zen Buddhist sesshin, at least in broad outlines. This was good practice! And good preparation for me, who would soon after find a Ch'an Buddhist teacher, to begin Ch'an practice with him and his sangha pretty intensively.

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Re: Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:09 pm

“This place is a dream. Only a sleeper considers it real. Then death comes like dawn, and you wake up laughing at what you thought was your grief. But there’s a difference with this dream. Everything cruel and unconscious done in the illusion of the present world, all that does not fade away at the death-waking. It stays, and it must be interpreted. All the mean laughing, all the quick, sexual wanting, those torn coats of Joseph, they change into powerful wolves that you must face. The retaliation that sometimes comes now, the swift, payback hit, is just a boy’s game to what the other will be. You know about circumcision here. It’s full castration there! And this groggy time we live, this is what it’s like: A man goes to sleep in the town where he has always lived, and he dreams he’s living in another town. In the dream, he doesn’t remember the town he’s sleeping in his bed in. He believes the reality of the dream town. The world is that kind of sleep. The dust of many crumbled cities settles over us like a forgetful doze, but we are older than those cities. We began as a mineral. We emerged into plant life and into the animal state, and then into being human, and always we have forgotten our former states, except in early spring when we slightly recall being green again. That’s how a young person turns toward a teacher. That’s how a baby leans toward the breast, without knowing the secret of its desire, yet turning instinctively. Humankind is being led along an evolving course, through this migration of intelligences, and though we seem to be sleeping, there is an inner wakefulness that directs the dream, and that will eventually startle us back to the truth of who we are.”
~ Jalaluddin Rumi, The Essential Rumi

On Practise;

Submit to a daily practice.
Your loyalty to that is a ring on the door.
Keep knocking and the joy inside
will eventually open a window
and look out to see who’s there.
~Rumi

desert_woodworker wrote:Thanks. Oh, I do not compare the Sufi practices with the practices of Zen Buddhism. Nor contrast them.

But I'm grateful to have had them, and to have benefited from them and from the teachings and leadership of the sheikh and the companionship and comradery of the group of murids surrounding the sheikh.

The teacher, or sheikh, said that he felt himself to be very much of the same spirit as the Zen Buddhist masters of the past, by the way, as much as he felt obvious familial kinship in his Sufi lineage and succession. A result of this was that when we held meditation retreats together, he modeled them exactly like a Zen Buddhist sesshin, at least in broad outlines. This was good practice! And good preparation for me, who would soon after find a Ch'an Buddhist teacher, to begin Ch'an practice with him and his sangha pretty intensively.

Joe, without comparing them you perhaps could say something about the practise or the outcome of practise during your Sufi times,
like in levels of intoxication, or joy, or anything colourful was there any clinging to colours and did you look for something colourless
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Re: Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:13 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Joe, without comparing them you perhaps could say something about the practise or the outcome of practise during your Sufi times, like in levels of intoxication, or joy, or anything colourful was there any clinging to colours and did you look for something colourless

Fuki, as I and others experienced it, the whole yoga of the Sufi-way was Love. IS Love. :O:

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Re: Rumi

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:21 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Fuki, as I and others experienced it, the whole yoga of the Sufi-way was Love. IS Love. :O:

--Joe


Thanks Joe, intoxicating!

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Re: Rumi

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Yes, the way of Sufi is love. Thanks Joe for bringing in the balance here. Rumi was a mystic and a Sufi. A Sufi Sikh was my teacher in grad school... there is a whole tradition of sufi stories (seems similar to koans)

There are flavors of enlightenment. I won't question.

I am going to a poetry event tomorrow evening called Rumi's Caravan .... local artists, who get together once a year to offer this.

".... an evening of live poetry and music performed in the ecstatic tradition, celebrating the art of Rumi, Hafiz, and other mystic poets in our enchanting Japanese Meditation Garden."

:) The Japanese Meditation Garden is in the back of a Spa offering Japanese enzyme baths... the owner spent many years in Japan with Zen. One morning a week, a local zen teacher comes and has meditation outside in the pagoda by the pond. such is Sonoma County
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not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: Rumi

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:36 pm

Love has taken away my practices and filled me with poetry.
I tried to keep quietly repeating "no strength but yours",
but I couldn't.
I had to clap and sing.

I used to be respectable, and chaste, and stable.
But who can stand in this strong wind and remember those things?
A mountain keeps an echo deep inside itself:
that's how I hold your voice

I am scrap wood thrown in your fire and quickly reduced to smoke.
I saw you, and became empty.
This emptiness, more beautiful than existence-it obliterates existence.
And yet, when it comes, existence thrives and creates more existence.

The sky is blue;
the world is a blind man squatting on the road
But whoever sees your emptiness sees beyond blue
and beyond the blind man.

A great soul hides,
like Muhammed or Jesus,
moving through a crowd in a city
where no one knows him.

To praise
is to praise how one surrenders to the emptiness.
To praise the sun
is to praise your own eyes,
praise the ocean.
What we say: a little ship.

So the sea journey goes on, and who knows where.
Just to be held by the ocean
is the best luck we could have.
It's a total waking up.
Why should we grieve that we've been sleeping?
It doesn't matter how long we've been unconscious.
We're groggy, but let the guilt go.
Feel the motions of tenderness around you, the buoyancy.


RUMI
(translated by Coleman Barks)


many years ago, I innocently read this in my new zen sangha, not knowing the climate didn't think much of him. :)
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:44 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:many years ago, I innocently read this in my new zen sangha, not knowing the climate didn't think much of him. :)

Linda, I think if they or the climate gave the poems a chance, and several repeated, close, readings, they'd see that there are some things in common with awakened or nearly-awakened experience.

But I think some Zen Buddhist practitioners are accustomed in fact to a diet of pretty spare writings (if any writings at all). Rumi is somewhat flowery by comparison, and some "Zen"-people may feel that "the words get in the way", or may not be able to see the forest for all the pretty trees. Just saying!, not defending their tastes, as you perceived them.

Omar Khayyam comes across a bit highly-over-perfumed, too, I think many Zen Buddhist people would agree... .

But I can't imagine Rumi going underappreciated or misunderstood in, say, any sangha of John Tarrant's, or Joan Sutherland's! Maybe you're referring to some sangha who you met earlier-on than theirs... . :peace:

Also, well, Rumi, Kabir, etc., may be an acquired-taste. And the translator has something to do with the impact and reception, too. ;)

So, all things being equal, ...nothing is equal. :lol2:

(glad we got that settled). ;)

--Joe
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Re: Rumi

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:19 pm

Here's the low-down by Ch'an Master Sheng Yen on his recognized scheme of Ch'an practice progressing from Scattered Mind to Unified Mind to No-Mind (It's No-Mind which I had been calling "Original Mind" in posts above, here).

This relevant excerpt of Shihfu Sheng Yen's teaching is from a course given to Ch'an practitioners at the Ch'an Meditation Center in New York, and is transcribed thoroughly here:

http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MISC/misc38333.pdf

    " The practice of Ch'an should progress in this sequence: scattered mind,
    simple mind, one mind, no mind. First we gather our scattered thoughts
    into a more concentrated, or simple, state of mind. From this
    concentrated state we can enter the mind of unity. Finally, we leap
    from the unified mind to the state of no mind. This final process can
    be accomplished more quickly using the Ch'an methods of hua-t'ou or
    kung-an.

    To go from one mind to no mind does not mean that anything is lost;
    rather, it means that you are free of the unified state. Someone who
    dwells in one mind would either be attached to samadhi, or else would
    feel identified with a certain deity. It is only after you are freed
    from this unity and enter no mind that you return to your own nature,
    also called "wu," or Ch'an.

    Even though this progression in the practice takes place, while you are
    actually practicing you should not think to yourself: "I am striving to
    concentrate my mind. I want to get to the state of one mind, to the
    state of no mind." If you have such ideas of seeking, you will be in
    trouble. Just concern yourself with your method; persist with your
    method to the very end. This in itself is close to a state of unity. If you
    hold to it, eventually you will reach a point where the method disappears
    and you will reach one mind."

I can vouch for and attest to what is taught here, and for the opening into the stage that follows one mind, which Shihfu calls no-mind.

With gratitude to my Shihfu, and best wishes to All,

:Namaste:

--Joe
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