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Noumenon and Phenomena - Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Noumenon and Phenomena - Nisargadatta Maharaj

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:54 pm

maaeso wrote:Did any Zen Masters or schools investigate what the Noumenal world is?


Taken the liberty to share Maharaj's 'knowledge' regarding this subject.

Sri Niz wrote:My education is up to the level which can barely put me in the category of the literate; I have not read any of the great traditional scriptures and the only language I know is my native Marathi. The only enquiry I have pursued, but pursued it relentlessly - like a hunter pursues his quarry- is this: 'I know I am and I have a body. How could this happen without my knowledge and consent? And what is this knowledge I am?' This has been my life-long pursuit and I am fully satisfied with the answers I have reached. This is my only Jnana, yet people believe I am a Jnani. My Guru told me: "You are Brahman, you are all and everything. There is nothing other than you." I accepted my Guru's word as truth, and now, for forty odd years I have been sitting in this very room doing nothing except talking about it. Why do people come to me from distant lands? What a miracle!

After pursuing my enquiry to its logical conclusion what have I arrived at? The whole thing is really simple, if only one sees the picture clearly. What is this 'me' that I am concerned with? The immediate answer, of course, is - 'this me, this body'. But then the body is only a psychosomatic apparatus. What is the most important element in this apparatus which qualifies it to be known as a sentient being? It is undoubtedly the consciousness without which this apparatus, while perhaps technically alive, would be useless as far its functioning is concerned. This consciousness obviously needs a physical construct in which to manifest itself. So, consciousness depends upon the body. But what is the body made of? How does the body come into existence? The body is merely a growth in the woman's womb during a period of about nine months, the growth of what is conceived by the union of the male and female sexual fluids. These fluids are the essence of the food consumed by the parents. Basically, therefore, both consciousness and the body are made of, and are sustained by food. Indeed, the body itself is food - one body being the food of some other body. When the food-essence, the vital sexual fluids, grows from conception into a tiny body and is delivered out of the mother's womb, it is called 'birth'. And when this food essence gets decayed due to age or illness and the psychosomatic apparatus happens to get destroyed, it is called 'death'. This is what happens all the time - the objective universe projecting and dissolving innumerable forms; the picture keeps on changing all the time. But how am 'I' concerned with this? I am merely the witness to all this happening. Whatever happens during the period of the happening, in each case, affects only the psychosomatic apparatus, not the 'I' that I am.

This is the extent of my 'knowledge', basically. Once it is clear that whatever happens in the manifested world is something apart from me, as the 'I', all other questions resolve themselves.

At what stage exactly did I come to have the knowledge of my 'existence'? What was I before this knowledge 'I am' came to me? This knowledge 'I am' has been with me ever since I can remember, perhaps a few months after this body was born. Therefore, memory itself must have come with this knowledge 'I am', this consciousness. What was the position before that? The answer is: I do not know. Therefore, whatever I know of anything has its beginning in consciousness, including pain and pleasure, day and night, waking and sleeping - indeed the entire gamut of dualities and opposites in which one cannot exist without the other. Again, what was the position before consciousness arose? These interrelated opposites inevitably must have existed but only in negation, in unicity, in wholeness. This must then be the answer. This unicity is what I am. But this unicity, this identity, this wholeness cannot know itself because in it there exists no subject as separate from an object-a position that is necessary for the process of seeing, or knowing, or cognizing. In other words, in the original state of unicity, or wholeness, no medium or instrument exists through which 'knowing' may take place.

Mind cannot be used to transcend the mind. The eye cannot see itself; taste cannot taste itself; sound cannot hear itself. 'Phenomena' cannot be phenomena without 'noumenon'. The limit of possible conceptualization - the abstract of mind - is noumenon, the infinity of the unknown. Noumenon, the only subject, objectifies itself and perceives the universe, manifesting phenomenally within itself, but apparently outside, in order to be a perceivable object. For the noumenon to manifest itself objectively as the phenomenal universe, the concept of space-time comes into operation because objects, in order to be cognizable, have to be extended in space by giving them volume and must be stretched in duration or time because otherwise they could not be perceived.

So, now I have the whole picture: The sentient being is only a very small part within the process of the apparent mirrorization of the noumenon into the phenomenal universe. It is only one object in the total objectivization and, as such, 'we' can have no nature of our own. And yet - and this is important- phenomena are not something separately created, or even projected, but are indeed noumenon conceptualized or objectivized. In other words, the difference is purely notional. Without the notion, they are ever inseparable, and there is no real duality between noumenon and phenomena.

This identity - this inseparableness - is the key to the understanding, or rather the apperceiving of our true nature, because if this basic unity between the noumenon and the phenomenon is lost sight of, we would get bogged down in the quagmire of objectivization and concepts. Once it is understood that the noumenon is all that we are, and that the phenomena are what we appear to be as separate objects, it will also be understood that no entity can be involved in what we are, and therefore, the concept of an entity needing 'liberation' will be seen as nonsense; and 'liberation', if any, will be seen as liberation from the very concept of bondage and liberation.

When I think about what I was before I was 'born', I know that this concept of 'I am' was not there. In the absence of consciousness, there is no conceptualizing; and whatever seeing takes place is not what one - an entity - sees as a subject/object, but is seeing from within, from the source of all seeing. And then, through this 'awakening', I realize that the all-enveloping wholeness of the Absolute can not have even a touch of the relative imperfection; and so I must, relatively, live through the allotted span of life until at the end of it, this relative 'knowledge' merges in the noknowing state of the Absolute. This temporary condition of 'I-know' and 'I-know-that-I-know' then merges into that eternal state of 'I-do-not-know' and 'I-do-not-know' that 'I-do-not-know.

~excerpts from the book : "Pointers from Nisargadatta Maharaj" by Ramesh S. Balsekar
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Re: Noumenon and Phenomena - Nisargadatta Maharaj

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:17 pm

Lots to read (TMTR -- "too-much-to-read").

What's the gist, in yer own words, Marcel? Got a handle on it?

Not a fair representative, though; the fellow's not Buddhist. All other things being equal.

--Joe
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Re: Noumenon and Phenomena - Nisargadatta Maharaj

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:33 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:What's the gist, in yer own words, Marcel? Got a handle on it?


I don't know Joe, I'm eating a cookie, it's basically suicide, dying is Natural
only this knowing is impermanent and disappears with the scene, so no taint of Awareness or Nirvana.
How could it, other then it being a concept?

Ah the coffee perks, wonderful!
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Re: Noumenon and Phenomena - Nisargadatta Maharaj

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:14 am

My coffee drips. Just a personality difference, I am sure.

And we all know that "personality" is the least real of all Human qualities. ;)

Still, one of the best perqs of Coffee is its uplifting influence. Even decaf is not caffeine-free. I only drink it for the taste, though. And to dunk my scones.

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Re: Noumenon and Phenomena - Nisargadatta Maharaj

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:07 am

Perk was a mistranslation, we say the "pruttel" which is the sound of the coffee machine it makes, especially at the end when the coffee is done dripping the "prutteling" reaches its climax and the "space" between the "noise" shortens in time.

At the same time "pruttel" means complaining, but never used in daily language only on coffee machines or the sound of some animals or human babies. (Only Archie Bunker would use "pruttel" that way and tell Edith to stifle herself)

Zennyways, using a French press is still my favourite way to make coffee since the outcome is the most delicious.
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