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Zen & Other Traditions

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Zen & Other Traditions

Postby maaeso on Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:59 pm

I have mentioned before that finding the Zazen focus of places like Antai-ji in Japan, Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America, Sanshin Zen Community, reinvigorated my focus on Zen.

I had been reviewing and learning about a lot of other traditions. Things like Advaita Vedanta, Theravada, Eastern Orthodox, Dzogchen & Mahamudra, Jainism, Yoga, Daoism, Etc.

I have seen on other forums discussion and contrast of other traditions is usually a very popular subject and can really illuminate some very deep subtleties and also agreements.

Sometimes this content can be helpful in broadening and deepening ones own practice.

Sooooooo I thought I would open it up for discussion. Contrast Zen and or Particular Rinzai, Soto, Seon, Thien, Chan, and so forth with what is out there.

Lets see the wisdom of the forum.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:51 pm

Such comparisons and contrasts can be tiring. Better that I stay out of it.

I find too that once one finds a suite of practices that suits a person, one tends to remain with it, and not delve into other ways.

But, maybe at the beginning of one's search and research, and ones tentative steps toward finding "a suite that will suit", comparing and contrasting can be interesting, and even vital! But usually one does that oneself, I think.

best regards,

--Joe
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:08 am

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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby maaeso on Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:57 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
126990235.RCzXwW0m.jpg


That picture is crazy awesome.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:40 pm

maaeso wrote:That picture is crazy awesome.


A friend makes them, I have a bunch saved on the pc.
Many Buddhist and many other tradition quotes, often when reading on this forum I associate a picture like this and post it.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby TTT on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:12 am

Hi fuki and others on the thred.
Great images your friend is making.

I was listening to an album by Death in June, the peaceful snow. He is wearing a No - mask and lookes horrible in it, but the musik is great!

I thought of the imagen your friend did. with Mester Eckhart. Is it lilys?

There are meny Christians out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk0xe3xTTEM
When
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:45 am

Thanks T, I don't know what kind of flower that is. (an orchid maybe?)

Triple wrote:There are meny Christians out there


Christians, Gods and Buddhists are but ideas.
There are no Christians, no Gods, and no Buddhists, only empty costumes pieced together from discarded bits of imagination :heya:

These very thoughts are God, but then slipping in a dreamless sleep, it all disappears.
hafiz 7.jpg
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:49 am

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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:09 pm

This is Sanderson, a domestic medium-haired Orange Tabby boy-cat from our local animal shelter, who I've had for two years. He has grown to adult size, I think, and is now very large, the largest cat I have ever had, and ever seen.

The tape-measure shown is divided in Inches and Feet; there are 2.54 cm per inch, or 30.5 cm per foot. You can see that Sandy is a big boy!

Very agile, quick, and smart; a credit to his species (Felis catus). He's also a "retriever", and loves to play that game ("fetch").

--Joe

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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:58 pm

A beauty, Joe.

All cats I lived with were retrievers until they were around 2 years old, after that age they all stopped retrieving.

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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby maaeso on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:25 am

That is a big cat.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:57 am

maaeso wrote:That is a big cat.

Yes, he is.

Sorry!, that post was supposed to go into the "Photos You Like" thread. My mistake to have put it here.

--Joe
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby lobster on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:00 pm

maaeso wrote:Lets see the wisdom of the forum.

Perhaps zen wisdom entails an unidentified orchid and a large cat in the wrong place ... :hide:

meanwhile ...

I feel yoga is very useful for relaxing the tension of waiting for Nothing. :buddha:
Any god based mysticism is better than nihilistic wandering in circles, unless one likes that sort of thing. :O:
Pagans are much kinder to nature than the zen kitty litters sand gardens and monstrous but serene pruning of perfectly sensible growth amongst bonsai butchured trees. :daisy:

What else can be gained from other enlightened perspectives? Well I guess dervishes and Christians are really better at being thrashed on both cheeks than the shinobi and samurai inspired concentrates ... :ninja:

What wisdom do you like maaeso?
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:21 pm

Teachers in elementary school grades in USA during certain decades of time would put exercises to students in homework or on exams to "Compare and contrast" this or that, usually in an essay of some sort to write at home or in class, or in an essay-question on an exam in class. The "comparing and contrasting" was always of something in some subject that was being studied in class, or in current events in the news.

These were exercises in writing, and also probes of a students knowledge, and a test of the state of his/her abilities.

I think that less of this "Compare and contrast" challenge went on in High School.

After years of this sort of academic punishment (although sometimes the topics were, in fact, fun), many USA people don't like to be reminded of "compare and contrast" this-and-that. I feel some residue of this myself. But it's especially when the question involves deep religious practice that I resist; or, stronger, refuse.

This may explain some reticence here "to get down-and-dirty".

BTW, an old adage in English is "Comparisons are odious".

A line that I think I originated and which I like to use is, "If comparisons are odious, then how much moreso are contrasts".

Especially regarding religious traditions... .

But if a question were much more pointed and focused on a narrower field, it would be a pleasure to reply if I had any knowledge or experience in the area(s).

One doesn't like to pretend to give a course in Comparative Religion in a single post, much less in a single semester, ...or two!

But Prof. Huston Smith has a good book on it (in-print since 1958; over 3 million copies sold).

A quote attributed to Prof. Smith is: "The goal of spiritual life is not altered states, but altered traits."

(would make a good signature line)

best,

--Joe
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:57 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:But it's especially when the question involves deep religious practice that I resist; or, stronger, refuse.


Joe, I understand.

On the other hand we should also be careful not to automatically reject anything just because it is not Zen Buddhism, or Buddhism.
This forum is called ZFI and yet it has this section of other traditions, I understand the "danger" of mixing or comparing for all such comparing is merely conceptual. I remember once sharing something of Sri Niz with Guo Gu, Guo Gu never heared of him and after googling he told me "what is this "I am" stuff? Then I had to reply saying it is merely a temporary medicine to "I am this, I am that" and that the "I am" expedient is but a beginners tool, basically resulting in the outcome of correct practise into what is known as "don't know" in for instance Kwan Um Buddhism.

This forum is not only for ppl who already have a Sangha or a Buddhist teacher, many of us find helpful expedients outside of Buddhism too.
I don't think anyone can "judge" another tradition if they haven't practised it for many years (I know you have experience prior to Ch'an Joe) but they can share as you do that you have observed it is not wise to do so. I still like it when others bring it up, I return to not knowing all the time, so that includes Buddhism too. It are "just" some words on the interweb.

Image

I see no harm in this, it "shouldn't" result in ppl thinking "oh let me dive into advaita vendata or "Hinduism" and even if they do, so what?
If it results in attachments and aversion I say both traditions have fine expedients to work with that. Scripture talk about Buddha or Brahma, or self or non-self are just stories, practise is not related to that, unless one's practise is studying philosophy. You've seen what grasping at scriptures lead to, to online Buddhists and Boatmans too. In that context I say it makes no difference whether grasping at apples or pears.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:29 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:But it's especially when the question involves deep religious practice that I resist; or, stronger, refuse.

Joe, I understand.

On the other hand we should also be careful not to automatically reject anything just because it is not Zen Buddhism, or Buddhism.

Sure(ly).

You're speaking for yourself there, though, because I not not "reject" them (and certainly not "automatically").

But the question is too big, too far-ranging, and too lazy. Therefore, "rejecto-mecto". By this point in life, I know it's better to refuse such sweeping glosses. Let the question be a LOT narrower, and pointed, then there's hope of making a contribution to understanding and controversy.

I.e., there are good questions, and bad ones. I "reject" the bad ones "automatically". :lol2: Speaking for myself.

Life is short. And Huston Smith's book is good (on these matters, as background).

:lol2:

--Joe

p.s. "Oh, and another thing": ;)

...don't confuse "judge" with "discern". Just not wise to do that.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:32 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
p.s. "Oh, and another thing": ;)

...don't confuse "judge" with "discern". Just not wise to do that.


Sorry Joe, you know that is because often English (nor Dutch) words pop up in the main brain, and I'm too lazy to wait until thoughts are formed as words in order to express myself, so I write a lot of stuff uncarefuly, often using "" as a sign it shouldn't be taken "literally"
But I'll try to be more patient in writing. I assume most peoples thoughts appear as words, but here it is often just some rudimentary energy instead of a letter-word. And some word is already typed before I've cognized it, then when seeing the words appear on the screen I realize the words are no good, as I said it is lazyness (or caring for words) to take the time to edit the first manifest.

I'm hardly conscious sometimes when I type :lol2: :tongueincheek:
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:51 pm

g'morning, Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
p.s. "Oh, and another thing": ;)

...don't confuse "judge" with "discern". Just not wise to do that.

Sorry Joe, you know that is because often English (nor Dutch) words pop up in the main brain, and I'm too lazy to wait until thoughts are formed as words in order to express myself, so I write a lot of stuff uncarefuly, often using "" as a sign it shouldn't be taken "literally"
But I'll try to be more patient in writing. I assume most peoples thoughts appear as words, but here it is often just some rudimentary energy instead of a letter-word. And some word is already typed before I've cognized it, then when seeing the words appear on the screen I realize the words are no good, as I said it is lazyness (or caring for words) to take the time to edit the first manifest.

I'm hardly conscious sometimes when I type :lol2: :tongueincheek:

Fuki, your writing is excellent, as is your English (your Dutch must be astronomical). It's just that I am perhaps sometimes too much of a "stickler". That's a person who tickles, but with an "s" at the beginning. Working on it, though, both at being less of a stickler, and practicing my tickling!

Vipassana friends of mine say that they are taught a lot about "discernment", and they exercise it often in daily life and in explicit practice. Interesting! I'll have to ask them who teaches about this, and if there are materials that even 'outsiders' can access.

Thanks for sharing some of the mechanics of how writing "happens" for you. That's very interesting. I'm sure that the human psychology of "writing' it is very complex. And, you know, writing is not a very long established thing in Human beings, being maybe only about 10000 years old?, or a lot less? Dunno.

Hmm, maybe I can soon ask linguist Noam Chomsky, who is coming to the University of Arizona here in town to join the faculty in Linguistics:

http://tucson.com/news/linguist-noam-chomsky-joins-university-of-arizona-faculty/article_5e150bc8-1e7d-528b-afe7-eb3faf1c78f4.html

and, the official release:

http://uanews.arizona.edu/story/worldrenowned-linguist-noam-chomsky-joins-faculty-university-arizona

Thanks for sharing.

--Joe
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:44 pm

Thank you Joe, there's always room for improvement though. :)

Never heared of Chomsky before, read up a bit about universal grammar (which seems obvious) the Chomsky hierarchy looks very interesting!
I'll read some more about it.

ps it's interesting to observe when in "silence" there's an ocean of time "between thoughts" also before the "arising of a thought" it might take "forever" so it seems before a word or a sentence is formed, when you notice "thoughts forming" it actually dissolves without there appearing a thought or sentence, with visual images it seems to pop up "immediately" and the image, poof! magically appears :daisy:

Is that you think the main reason we sit with eyes half open?

Interesting though the entities (objects) by which we cognize.
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Re: Zen & Other Traditions

Postby maaeso on Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:01 am

fukasetsu wrote:A beauty, Joe.

All cats I lived with were retrievers until they were around 2 years old, after that age they all stopped retrieving.

4163744.png


Lol loved this
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