Welcome admin !

It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:35 pm
Pathway:  Board index General Discussion Forum and Lounge Other Traditions

Chakra

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:11 am

In 30 years I've experienced around 10-15 cases of what is known as "supernatural powers"
Some might say it's a dinosaur on my head others might relate to the experience because they recognize it.

Again the only criteria is, is whether it is skillful to talk about such experiences or not, whether one believes there is such a thing or not is totally irrelevant at least to me. I have no experience with Cakras nor do I care for it, ofcourse as in most things that is "out there" a lot of it is as Jundo says "talking oneself into" the sensation/experience, but they might be genuine too. I can't comment on Cakras at all.

One of the reliefs I found with Zen Buddhism is that I wasn't bombarded with "new age" (it's no pejorative connotation) things like that anymore, because without having any judgments on whether it is psychosomatic or not I did find if people around you talk about it constantly and claim they have experienced something, I definitely started to imagine things (too), just because I wanted to be part of the group so to say. When I picked up Zen Buddhism, immediately I had no more recollections of "past lives" it was just my imagination I was being talked into. Ofcourse there are genuine recollections, but mine were not.
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:30 pm

Folks,

jundo wrote:Further, there is the tendency to "talk oneself into" a sensation.

I think Jundo is correct there, when it comes to some people. Some practitioners may be "suggestable", especially if they read "too much".

But we're not talking about that here, nor are we talking about "the problem" that he sees which may arise. No. We're not talking about such a thing at all.

I acknowledge in the first place that these physical or at least part-physical arisings are not "the point" of Buddhist practice, and I will say as I always do that they may "come along for the ride", or -- very much more correctly -- that they do in fact become a part -- are a part; remain a part -- of the natural landscape of life when there is no mind, and after the body has undergone purifications and freed itself from repressive regimes of living.

Depending on how one continues to practice afterwards, this is a condition which may persist for weeks or months after intensive practice, and after awakening. Because there is no mind, then, and so absolutely no motion of mind, there is no "talking oneself into" anything, as there is then no internal voice whatsoever, in all the doings and work of daily life, while awake. I'm not talking about during "meditation", here! I'm talking about daily life, especially. No mind, no motion of mind, and hence "no talking oneself into anything". Period. So it is.

In that condition of awakening, one is in a condition to feel what is what, and what is not. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Until this eventuality, however, and confirmed and recognized by one's teacher, yes, one ought to be careful to watch out how one "talks" to oneself, and, always, as a practitioner, to minimize the predominance of that habit as a feature of one's daily life.

To sum up, I'd say that it's only when "body and mind have fallen away" that one knows for certain about features of body and features of mind. Original body; original mind.

So, with Dogen's teacher in China, Ju-ching, and with Dogen, I wish for all practitioners this wonderful and miraculous mind and body when both body and mind fall away, and remain fallen away. Hail!

Best wishes, Strong practice, All,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:48 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:But we're not talking about that here, nor are we talking about "the problem" that he sees which may arise. No. We're not talking about such a thing at all.


It has become part of the conversation has it not? :lol2: :PP:
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:01 pm

Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:It has become part of the conversation has it not?

If so (that is, if at all), I'd say that that part is off-topic. ;)

(it's sure-as-shootin' not what the OP asked about, and may be but a personal fixation of the one who replied; who's to tell).

Fallen-away body and mind allows (enables) one to discern what's-what (reality). There is no other criterion, and no other tool, nor authority.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:08 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:It has become part of the conversation has it not?

If so (that is, if at all), I'd say that that part of it is off-topic. ;)

(it's sure-as-shootin' not what the OP asked about, and may be but a personal fixation of the one who replied; who's to tell).

Fallen-away body and mind allows (enables) one to discern what's-what (reality). There is no other criterion, and no other tool, nor authority.

--Joe


Dear Sir,

It was a retoric question, for some life and siddhis are no longer distinguishable and it is all one unfolding mystery.
For me such is the case with humour, there's always room for humour and poetry but I understand it can be a distraction at times.
I will desist from responding to off-topic comments which multiply off-topic-ism and keep reading the on topic responses with interest.
:)
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:15 pm

.
Fuki, don't repress or stifle yourself TOO much, now. Because, as the Wisdom-saying goes,

"Nothing goes right
when your underwear's too tight"
.


--Joe

p.s. but it wasn't your reply I was referring to.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:30 pm

Duly noted Joe, thank you.

It seems your speech is already finished before you speak, thanks for the demonstration, wonderful.

:Namaste:
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby flutemaker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:06 pm

To sit and thoroughly focus on a sensation of any sort for 5 minutes one of course feels nothing but that, and there is no need fantasizing. But. This is not a proper ground to deny the existence of the phenomena being discussed.

To investigate the huato "who am I" wherein the inquiry is shifted towards the field of bodily sensations, for a long time, with the extreme intensity, MAY lead to the arising of the entirely new space of "perceptions-sensations".

Is it customary to talk about it? No. Likewise this is not customary describing Zen Buddhist openings. Why? For a number of reasons. Firstly things present themselves differently to different folks. Hence variety of verbal descriptions. The vision is not clear. Or is partial. Hence no clarity and unity in the literature.

Jundo, even scientists would agree the Universe is but an interplay of vibrations of various sort. Yes this is difficult to arrive at direct realization of this through one's body/mind/breath. But why state that this is not possible?

If I sit for 5 minutes without thorough realization of the true nature of mind, should I call the entire corpus of Buddhist scripture BS?
flutemaker
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:12 pm

flutemaker wrote:Jundo, even scientists would agree the Universe is but an interplay of vibrations of various sort.

Heck, odd scientists would agree, too.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby Spike on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:09 pm

Caodemarte wrote:There is actually a well-known tai chi "illness" when people begin to believe as physical fact what they're told they should imagine. Students may be told to react to the gestures of the teacher who is standing some distance away as if the gestures could actually reach them, as if the force of the teacher's movement could physically travel through space. It is an effective teaching method. It becomes an illness if the student convinces him/herself that this is actually happening and the teacher has magic powers. It is a deadly illness for the school if the teacher falls into this illusion.


This sounds similar to what is known in the West as stage hypnosis, where a volunteer colludes with a hypnotist on stage. It is different from clinical hypnosis characterized and induced by skillful trancework.

I once saw a presentation of the former at Dai Bosatsu Zendo. It was hard to watch monks contrive on stage while the roshi sat in slack-jawed appreciation. Probably envious.
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
User avatar
Spike
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: Chakra

Postby jundo on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:37 am

desert_woodworker wrote: ... when there is no mind, and after the body has undergone purifications and freed itself from repressive regimes of living.

Depending on how one continues to practice afterwards, this is a condition which may persist for weeks or months after intensive practice, and after awakening. Because there is no mind, then, and so absolutely no motion of mind, there is no "talking oneself into" anything, as there is then no internal voice whatsoever, in all the doings and work of daily life, while awake. I'm not talking about during "meditation", here! I'm talking about daily life, especially. No mind, no motion of mind, and hence "no talking oneself into anything". Period. So it is.

...

... I wish for all practitioners this wonderful and miraculous mind and body when both body and mind fall away, and remain fallen away. Hail!



Hi Joe,

I am just curious as to whether you believe that you have personally experienced (non-experienced) such a state of "no mind ... that may persist for months and months ... [in which] there is no internal voice whatsoever", or whether you are just relating what you understand the potential and possibility to be for such based on what others have described and secondary sources.

Thank you for the clarification.

Gassho, Jundo
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
User avatar
jundo
Teacher
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:47 am

Re: Chakra

Postby flutemaker on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:53 pm

jundo wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote: ... when there is no mind, and after the body has undergone purifications and freed itself from repressive regimes of living.

Depending on how one continues to practice afterwards, this is a condition which may persist for weeks or months after intensive practice, and after awakening. Because there is no mind, then, and so absolutely no motion of mind, there is no "talking oneself into" anything, as there is then no internal voice whatsoever, in all the doings and work of daily life, while awake. I'm not talking about during "meditation", here! I'm talking about daily life, especially. No mind, no motion of mind, and hence "no talking oneself into anything". Period. So it is.

...

... I wish for all practitioners this wonderful and miraculous mind and body when both body and mind fall away, and remain fallen away. Hail!



Hi Joe,

I am just curious as to whether you believe that you have personally experienced (non-experienced) such a state of "no mind ... that may persist for months and months ... [in which] there is no internal voice whatsoever", or whether you are just relating what you understand the potential and possibility to be for such based on what others have described and secondary sources.

Thank you for the clarification.

Gassho, Jundo


Joe is describing a condition which persisted for him personally (not something overheard from others) for a certain period after his own (not something overheard from others) transformational "experience" of a sort. There is no doubt in it.

As a side note, reading a book on a guitar improvisation, I can definitely state that such thing as a "blues chord sequence-progression" doesn't exist. Yes, the book has lots of charts, pictures, and explanations. But I hear no sound whatsoever, when reading it.

Further, even dissecting a guitar in small parts won't reveal the sound of the chord line. One has to learn playing. And even then, short of my playing in this very moment, the sound still doesn't exist.

And guess what. Learning to play guitar is easy. And there are things requiring much more patience and efforts to accomplish. When this is next to impossible, fakes are multiplying.
flutemaker
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:32 pm

Jundo,

Quoting, and replying a bit:

jundo wrote:I am just curious as to whether you believe that you have personally experienced (non-experienced) such a state of "no mind ... that may persist for months and months ... [in which] there is no internal voice whatsoever", or whether you are just relating what you understand the potential and possibility to be for such based on what others have described and secondary sources.

Thank you for the clarification.

Thanks for the interest and the question.

Experienced, yes.

I learned a lot during the first months, because, as a scientist, my work involved exacting calculations, and I was now unable to do things the way I used to (not that they were previously ideal or optimal!). For example, I could not keep repeating things to myself, to keep them in mind (such as intermediate-results of calculations, before going on to the next step). I found it was impossible! Why, I could not "repeat" things even ONCE! But advanced-mathematics was still possible, done differently. Old habits could not be found.

There was no internal voice. And no motion of mind. Even in the landscape (city-scape... ), as things moved, they did not seem to move. Wonderful! Contradictory, I know, but so it was. You may know what I mean.

And there was no center of the visual-field. It was impossible to "stare" at anything. Vision was "funnel-vision", not "tunnel-vision", as I say.

But, I was not disabled by this clean and quiet state. I found I could do my work quite as well as ever, and even better, and I had no reason to tell anyone that everything was different (in the way I experienced things). However, people approached me and told ME I was different. They said I was "so warm", "so considerate". Well, it was only natural. I could act no other way. An opening of the heart is just that.

When I would sit on a park-bench at Riverside Park, samadhi would come on in 10-15 seconds, and everything would go golden, and the body would rest very deeply. A sweetness emanated from the belly. The soy-bean on the forehead asserted itself more strongly when sitting quietly like this, and felt not unpleasant, but like it was poking its way out from under the skin, outwards.

This first time of such an opening, the strong results lasted a long time, over 2 1/2 months. In that time, I was invited to take another job in addition to the one I had, and I carried it out well (building and testing some ground-test equipment for testing an x-ray astronomy instrument before launch at White Sands, the sounding-rocket site for scientific research in New Mexico). I worked at that job for 4 or 5 hours a day in evenings after my regular job. I seemed to have boundless energy (and actually did).

But taking-on extra things cut-into my various practices, somewhat, which were able to support the awakened condition. After ten weeks or so, it began to erode, and the brightness of things and darkness of shadows faded slowly, and I no longer felt as weightless as before.

Well, long story short, through continued daily-practice(s), and each (45 or 50) Ch'an retreat afterwards, and Zen sesshin afterwards, some of the clarity and utter naturalness of the awakened state returned, but there were also occasions of bigger and more complete wipings of the slate, almost as thorough as the first time had been (which had been in May, 1979, on Ch'an retreat, and afterward).

Much more could be said, of course; but it would only seem very familiar and need not be said, since you've probably had this experience and many more.

I'll repeat, as I like to do, my "saying" that this potentiality is, "the single most under-appreciated miracle of the past 2500 years". Or, perhaps 13.6 billion years. Or longer. ;)

But the single (dual... ) phenomenon most miraculous, it seems, is the simultaneous and spontaneous arising of Wisdom and Compassion, in that awakened state, and the way we are thus then able to relate with "others", and to be and to give just what is needed, exactly on-time.
Who would have believed that the heart-mind is so endowed that it can be this way. The Buddha and others have not lied to us. :Namaste:

Again, thanks asking.

Yours truly, --Joe

("Tennen")

p.s. There was also dreamless-sleep. Absolutely and totally. (Maybe no "need" to dream when samadhi-state lasted "24-7", already. Dunno).

EDIT: "Acknowledgements" -- Credit where credit is due! --

My gratitude to my root teacher, the late Ven. Ch'an Master Sheng Yen, knows no bounds;
And, to his lineage;

and, to the late Patrick Hawk Roshi;
and the late Robert Aitken Roshi; and,
John Tarrant Roshi;
Joan Sutherland Roshi;
James Ford Roshi;

And to Bernie Glassman Roshi;
the late John Daido Loori Roshi;
the late Maezumi Roshi;

and to my current Soto teacher, Dr. Al Genkai Kazniak.

Gratitude also to other Way-People but who I have not practiced with,
but whose teachings (and Art) have nourished me up to the
present moment (and beyond, by now... ). -J.

:Namaste: :rbow: :Namaste: :rbow: :Namaste: :rbow:
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby jundo on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:48 pm

Lovely and to be cherished, so long as such non-lasted.

Now, back to the grind and muck, just as sacred.

Gassho, J

SatToday
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
User avatar
jundo
Teacher
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:47 am

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:07 pm

Jundo,

jundo wrote:Lovely and to be cherished, so long as such non-lasted.

The first opening was perhaps the strongest and most long-lasting, because the purifications were the most thorough. Just lucky: it all depended on the good heart of my Master, Sheng Yen, that first Ch'an retreat. But I also arrived as a thorough Hatha yogi, and long-distance runner. So I reveled in Sheng Yen's wonderful emphasis on physical-practices, and self-massage, all done communally.
I thank my lucky stars. And even the three-degree Kelvin Universal Background black-body radiation. :lol2:

jundo wrote:Now, back to the grind and muck, just as sacred.

Agreed, Jundo Roshi. There's just nothing else, anyway. We put our pointy shoulders to the wheel, and come away a little more rounded.

Wishing you clear skies; Full moon "continues" tonight! ;-)

:Namaste:,

--Joe

Gassho, J


:rbow:
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:25 am

Thanks Joe I'd love to read more, what happened with "we do not speak of our experiences" :tongueincheek:

Yeah I know it is nothing fixed or absolute, whatever you say or do not say :lol2:
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:33 pm

hiya, Fuki, g'morning,

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks Joe I'd love to read more, what happened with "we do not speak of our experiences"

When a Teacher asks, one has nothing to hide, no reason to hide it, and had better not try. ;)

fukasetsu wrote:Yeah I know it is nothing fixed or absolute, whatever you say or do not say :lol2:

One doesn't like to spill one's guts, but when asked, one feels a responsibility to say something germane. It's the "Bodhisattva" in us, too, I hope (or can be allowed to be).

But, now, Jundo kindly asked whether I spoke in ZFI posts from mere book-larnin' or from experience through practice. Although I went on too long replying, this is what I answered about.

tnx,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:52 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:When a Teacher asks, one has nothing to hide, no reason to hide it, and had better not try. ;)


I doubt any teacher would have an ulterior motive by asking, but you never know ;)
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:05 am

fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:When a Teacher asks, one has nothing to hide, no reason to hide it, and had better not try. ;)

I doubt any teacher would have an ulterior motive by asking, but you never know ;)

No, but what I mean here is that, if the teacher is a teacher you trust, and perhaps have a practice-relationship with that teacher (you are his or her student), then there's no reason and no way to hide anything. And if you do, it would be time to re-evaluate whether in fact you want to have a teacher.

Granted, we're committed to the Dharma, and not necessarily to a teacher, but in many ways our teacher is our entre to correct Dharma, so good communication, and open communication, is valuable, and is "coin-of-the-Realm" we might say.

FYI, Jundo is not my teacher, except when he is! ;)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7233
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:59 am

Goodmorning, Joe.

Thanks for clearing that up and sharing your understanding, sounds healthy :)
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

PreviousNext

Return to Other Traditions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests