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Chakra

Postby Student on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:01 am

What chakra is chakra of strength, and the chakra of essence and vulnerability. Add existence too.

Thanks
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Re: Chakra

Postby TTT on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:20 pm

hmm, what do you what?

Stomak maybe?

:grr:
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Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Student,

Welcome!

People at sites that specialize in Yoga may be able to help with your question.

I think too that if a person takes up the practice(s) of Yoga, ALL the chakra-centers become strengthened, as does all the body and its organs. This over-all conditioning also in turn affects the mind and the person's energy to live daily-life.

With best wishes for strong practice,

--Joe

Disclaimer: The information provided is knowledge- and experienced-based
advice only and should not be construed as a medical diagnosis or be used in place
of a medical treatment or exam. Always consult a medical doctor regarding any
medical concerns or conditions.
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Re: Chakra

Postby Meido on Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:12 pm

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺]: http://www.korinji.org
Madison Rinzai Zen Community/Ryugen-ji [機山龍源寺]: http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community: http://www.rinzaizen.org
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Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:37 pm

Thanks, Meido, a very informative source there, even for a dyed-in-the-wool yogi (less "wool" than in the past, though... ). ;)

" :Namaste: ",

--Joe
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Re: Chakra

Postby Meido on Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:14 pm

NP, I thought it useful when I first read it.

I do wish the author spoke a bit RE physical analogues of these things; he discusses things in terms of subtle body teachings, but I personally think that the spectrum of such discussion usefully includes bodily analogues of the features found in these "maps", for example some mention of the enteric nervous system, abdominal aortic plexus, etc. in relation to the abdominal center.

I like his point RE prescriptive vs. descriptive. Maps are tools to arrive someplace, not landscape. Words like "hara" and "tanden" are intended to point out experiences - and bodily transformation - encountered within the context of practice cultivation.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺]: http://www.korinji.org
Madison Rinzai Zen Community/Ryugen-ji [機山龍源寺]: http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community: http://www.rinzaizen.org
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Re: Chakra

Postby jundo on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:08 am



I believe that this article, and other evidence (and lack of evidence), show just why Chakras simply do not exist.

People talk themselves into such beliefs, then believe that they feel so. I may convince myself that I can feel a dinosaur sitting on my head, but that does not mean that a dinosaur actually sits upon my head. If people believe that they feel something in head or heart, then they do. A simple tightening of muscles or natural skin warmth is mistaken for some mystical energy.

And if this is all meant as "prescriptive" rather than "descriptive," still what is the point of such practice? What is the benefit in trying to imagine that one feels such energies? Why the heck would any Zen practitioner wish to "install mantras and deity-energies at specific points of the subtle body"?

It is time that we swept such silliness from Buddhist Practice, and stop misleading people with such pseudo-physiological superstitions. There are no chakras nor head sitting dinosaurs.

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: Chakra

Postby macdougdoug on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:37 am

Of course us humans end up believing all sorts of stuff - however breathing into the hara (just below the navel) is very helpful, even though it doesn't "exist" (?) Does the solar plexus exist? The pineal gland and perineum do; all are indicated to be special positions in the body by the chakra system. I have also experienced that the energy line mumbo jumbo from qi gong is very useful when dealing with bodily tension and posture. They may not exist but they can be used.
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Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:04 am

Screenshot_2017-08-05-10-01-35.png


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Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:00 am

Thanks Doc!

Enjoy the weekend and may the weather be moderate :)
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Re: Chakra

Postby jundo on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:52 pm

macdougdoug wrote:Of course us humans end up believing all sorts of stuff - however breathing into the hara (just below the navel) is very helpful, even though it doesn't "exist" (?) Does the solar plexus exist? The pineal gland and perineum do; all are indicated to be special positions in the body by the chakra system. I have also experienced that the energy line mumbo jumbo from qi gong is very useful when dealing with bodily tension and posture. They may not exist but they can be used.


Hi Macdougdoug,

I also believe that teaching people to breath "from the hara" (just below the navel) is helpful even if there is no hara, and no way for the air to travel past the lungs down to there. It just means deep breathing, using the diaphragm, as any opera singer or athlete will know. One can use the word "hara" to refer to a general region.

However, actual physiological claims regarding the hara as a reservoir of Ki and energies, or mystical claims regarding the pineal gland, are to be very much doubted. The pineal gland, although scientists believe that it may actually have developed as a primitive light sensitive "third eye", is not the "Third Eye." It is true that one may feel great release of tension in the muscles of the forehead and in that region, and some sensations of warmth and muscle tension when one focuses there ... but so can one about any place on the surface of the body if one brings the attention and focus there. Try it, for example, with the back of the neck or the bottom of the foot or behind the knee. Of course, if it helps someone to focus there attention in a spot, I can not object. The only issue is all the wild and pseudo-psysiological claims made regarding the significance and power of these regions.

http://www.stufftheydontwantyoutoknow.c ... nd-eye.htm

I am glad that the, as you say, "energy line mumbo jumbo from gi gong" has been helpful in dealing with bodily tension and posture. But that does not mean that there are actual "energy lines", nor that claims regarding them which go far beyond tension and posture, are true.

My personal objection is not whether folks find it helpful to imagine such systems and energy lines. If folks find it helpful to imaging and visualize a dinosaur sitting on their head, then let them feel a T-Rex on their head. My objection is to wild claims for functions, health and other effects such as this ... where to even begin in criticizing many of the wild claims in a description such as the following ...

The Heart Channel of Hand - Lesser Yin

The heart and the small intestine are paired organs. The heart is considered Yin, and the small intestine is considered Yang, balancing this paired channel. These two organs correspond to Fire in the Five Phases, the southerly direction, the summer season, the climatic condition of heat, the color red, the emotion of happiness, the sound of laughter, the taste of bitterness, and the odor of burning. Their point of entry is the tongue, they control the blood vessels and are reflected in the face.

Almost all of the problems and disorders of the heart are associated with weakness. The four major types of heart weakness are Deficient Heart Qi, Deficient Heart Yang, Deficient Heart Blood, and Deficient Heart Yin.

The main functions of the heart are associated with the spirit and the blood vessels. The heart governs the blood vessels and is responsible for moving blood through them. It also stores the spirit, and is the organ usually associated with mental processes. Therefore, some forms of emotional distress, dizziness, palpitations, shortness of breath, and lack of Vitality are common symptoms of heart ailments. Deficient Heart Qi is symbolized by general lassitude, panting and shallow breathing, and frequent sweating. If the face is swollen and ashen gray or bluish-green, and the limbs are cold, it is called Deficient Heart Yang. The symptoms of restless ness, irritability, dizziness, absentmindedness, and insomnia are typical signs of Deficient Heart Blood. In Deficient Heart Yin cases, developments with a flushed feeling in the palms and face, low grade fever, and night sweating will occur.

The symptom of Heart Excess arises from an excess of Heart Fire. This is manifested by fever, occasionally accompanied by delirium, a racking pulse, intense restlessness, insomnia or frequent nightmares, a bright red face, a red or blistered and painful tongue, and often a burning sensation during urination. The latter symptom is the result of Heat being transferred from the heart to the small intestine, which interferes with the small intestine's role in metabolism and the body's management of water.

In Qigong society, it is believed that the mind is associated with the heart, and that it is also directly related to the spirit. The term heart (Xin) is usually used to represent the emotional mind or ideas. The Middle Dan Tian at the solar plexus is considered the residence of the Fire Qi. This Fire is used to nourish the brain and the spirit (Shen) at its residence, the Upper Dan Tian or third eye. In Chinese medicine it is said that the heart is the temple of the spirit because it supplies Fire Qi and can nourish the spirit without limit.

Generally speaking, the heart is very sensitive during the summertime: The heart is a Yin channel, and when the summer Yang comes it can increase the heart's Qi level and cause problems. Emotional disturbances, such as excitement from happiness, are considered harmful to the heart as well, especially during the summer time. Qigong emphasizes regulating the heart in the summer.
http://www.acupuncture.com/education/th ... rychan.htm


In my view, belief in some of that could end up killing someone. Such systems of belief are best relegated to history.

That is just my little view.

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: Chakra

Postby TTT on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:02 pm



Great sight, i did not realy look at it, maybe i can do that in the future!

:Namaste:
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Re: Chakra

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:31 pm

There is actually a well-known tai chi "illness" when people begin to believe as physical fact what they're told they should imagine. Students may be told to react to the gestures of the teacher who is standing some distance away as if the gestures could actually reach them, as if the force of the teacher's movement could physically travel through space. It is an effective teaching method. It becomes an illness if the student convinces him/herself that this is actually happening and the teacher has magic powers. It is a deadly illness for the school if the teacher falls into this illusion.
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Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:19 pm

Caodemarte wrote:There is actually a well-known tai chi "illness" when people begin to believe as physical fact what they're told they should imagine. Students may be told to react to the gestures of the teacher who is standing some distance away as if the gestures could actually reach them, as if the force of the teacher's movement could physically travel through space. It is an effective teaching method. It becomes an illness if the student convinces him/herself that this is actually happening and the teacher has magic powers. It is a deadly illness for the school if the teacher falls into this illusion.


My brother had a teacher like that when he went to a ninja school a few years, when he asked me to go with him for a trial lesson the teacher refused to demonstrate it on me, he clearly saw I wasn't a believer. My brother quit the school and now has some black flag in Wing Chung, no nonsense or mind fuckking there.
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Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:46 am

Jundo, et al.,

One can oneself discover a nexus, plexus, or what to call it, coming enlivened, becoming enlivened, after purifications, and after a kind of awakening, or other, say, as happened on Ch'an retreat, and sesshin. I don't believe this is too uncommon in Zen Buddhist circles, where people practice enough of physical practices, and have good preparation, good luck, and good cooperating-causes during intensive practice, with teacher and sangha.

I can't speak over-generally, nor do I want to speak exactly specifically (as it's no one's business).

After purifications, the hara can indeed be very open and relaxed, and a sweetness can be there. No tension at all. I can't separate this from a general feeling of weightlessness of the body, also (in daily activities, over a good number of months).

And, well, what of "the third eye"... . This is definitely no fiction. The same purifications led to this being obvious. I called it "a-soybean- on-the-forehead", hanging there, and then felt, and seen-though, in samadhi states, again, for months after the opening(s). Its presence was constant, and unremitting, until awakening eroded or submerged (as happens).

The other "centers" -- that is, those besides the belly and forehead -- I can't recall clearly having definite experience of. Unless the "heart-center", but this seemed not too distinctly situated or operative at just the heart position, but could as well have been the entire area above the hara, up to about "the throat". I don't recall anything special about the throat area, except that the voice was entirely free and uninhibited, and the mouth and jaw had absolutely no tension in it or about it, for months.

Strong practice!, All,

--Joe
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Re: Chakra

Postby flutemaker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:17 pm

jundo wrote:I believe that this article, and other evidence (and lack of evidence), show just why Chakras simply do not exist.

People talk themselves into such beliefs, then believe that they feel so...

This is very well possible that once someone starts training in something, not excluding Zen Buddhist methods, they may not feel any sort of results, achievements, transformations, revelations, recognitions, or break-through, for months, years, or tens of years or more.

Things could develop in such way, however, that sooner or later, and for some it may feel as "blessing", for some others as "play of causes and conditions", yet for some others as an unexplainable and unpredictable surprising "outcome", the one thus practicing undergoes a sudden and dramatic transformational process, which allows for unimaginable [in advance] expanding of their vision, and the entire state of their "body/mind-system".

When, in such case -- first and foremost based upon one's own inner experience and knowing, and certainly on their persistent and exhausting training/practice, and long period of sometimes fruitless efforts -- they come to realisation of the inner energetic structure of their own body, which dynamics (not just a static scheme) is verbally expressed with the mention of "currents", "whirlpools" [chakras], "sounds" [so called], and "winds" [so called], this is based on quite a firm ground.

It doesn't matter whether or not this is related directly to the Zen way of training. It may be just a by-product of a side-walk. However, the fact that one personally didn't arrive at certain things cannot serve as a basis for the denying of them.
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Re: Chakra

Postby flutemaker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:36 pm

Meido wrote:I do wish the author spoke a bit RE physical analogues of these things ...

Meido-sensei,

With your permission, and being at least 18% serious...

The bamboo flutes that I build come out mostly with 6 playing holes (more ancient version) and with 7 (the modern "classical" Hindustani bansuri flute). Each hole is assigned a Sanskrit letter, totaling "7" in number. And of course, they truly "exist" when the power of breath creates air "currents" -- which, interacting with the said holes, create an interplay of dynamic "sound-waves". Moving gradually from the bottom end (opening holes one-by-one) the frequency of the "vibrations" increases in sudden steps. The 7 steps passed, the second pass starts, much more subtle than the initial one, doubling the frequencies, and the musicians say one is in the second octave now. Reaching the highest tone, the 3rd octave starts.

The "body" of the flute of course has a certain scheme of the "chakras"-holes. But the most important thing is, this is the breath, "the winds", and the art of its control, which makes the "body" alive, and then, the "body/breath" unified, the SOUND is here, and that is not something one can grab and present to rev. Jundo-sama for storage in their collection of curiosities.

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Re: Chakra

Postby flutemaker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:13 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:... after purifications, and after a kind of awakening ...

... and there is no need to assume that this particular "kind of awakening" is by any means easy, and as easy as 1-2-3, to commonly "arrive at", and that the difficulties of the "purifications", if one aims at succeeding, are comparable to anything one is familiar with.
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Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:57 am

flutemaker wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:... after purifications, and after a kind of awakening ...

... and there is no need to assume that this particular "kind of awakening" is by any means easy, and as easy as 1-2-3, to commonly "arrive at", and that the difficulties of the "purifications", if one aims at succeeding, are comparable to anything one is familiar with.

I'd say that this is right.

The teachers here would probably agree, if they have had the experience of such events or arisings manifesting in themselves, or in their many students whom they have probably taught in intensive practice gatherings (7-day sesshin, e.g.).

I'd say that the purifications that I am speaking of, specifically, arise out of practice, and are not expected, nor bidden. I'd say that they take place as "results", and we might even say as a form of "gratuitous-grace", as if a gift. But I think I should say it is our true nature coming to the surface and making changes, and this occurs when our "mind" and Will are quiet enough (again, though practice) to keep out of the way, and not prevent or impede the progress of what is going on in this natural process. The purifications can and do take various forms, and work on different areas and aspects, either in-turn, or together. These forms are probably pretty well known to anyone who's attended a good number of sesshin, or other lengthy practice gatherings, either from experiencing them oneself in one's body, or noting them occurring in others attending.

Then, after a few days of settling-down in further practice after such purifications, certain features may begin to manifest -- or manifest strongly -- along the lines of what classical sources may refer to as chakras, and have referred to as chakras and their characteristics and functions.

--Joe
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Re: Chakra

Postby jundo on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:47 am

I believe that, at points in this Practice, one tangibly feels certain sensations that can be very pleasant, energizing, and seem to accompany certain mind states of this Path. If these are positive for one's practice, and seem free of a harmful aspect, then no problem for someone to find some encouragement or significance there. Such experiences and sensations may be quite positive and powerful. Further, they are tangible and as real as real can be in the sense that one actually can feel such things.

The problem arises, perhaps, only when one then takes the further step of interpreting these in ways not justified by the sensations, such as "this is a Chakra opening" or "better Ki flow." This problem is especially acute if we take the further step to map physiological systems that accompany such sensations which seemingly do not exist except as the product of some imaginative ancient who simply lacked understanding of how the human body actually works, what the organs really accomplish, or proposed cosmic forces and powers that are likely fantasy. The sensation is one thing, the explanation is another.

Further, there is the tendency to "talk oneself into" a sensation. For example, if I now focus on the space between my eyebrows, I can cause a deep warmth and "tight" feeling to arise there, and I can accompany this with some sensations of samadhi (I am doing so right now). I really feel the peace, the energy up my spine, and the seeming opening at the top of the nose BECAUSE I am looking to summon such feeling. Many a trained meditator can get into the right samadhi-ish state and feel this. However, I have now shifted attention to my left elbow, and I am summoning much of the same sensation of "energy" and opening there that was at the "Third Eye" (maybe I can call this the "Third Elbow").

In other words, folks can talk themselves or summon through wishful thinking all kinds of sensations, very tangible (it is helped along when a certain ancient manual or respected modern teacher tells one that "at stage Y, one will feel such and such." Sure enough, one goes looking for the feeling or other phenomena and one finds it ... by a power of suggestion. (I had an old aunt who could feel angels touch her in this way, actually feel the hand of an angel resting on her shoulder.)

Again, I am not saying that such feelings might not be helpful and positive to one's Practice. They might be (also one can summon very many negative sensations and experiences by the human mind and imagination). It is simply that feeling and seeing a dinosaur on one's head does not mean that the dinosaur is truly there.

By the way, someone raised the "science does not yet know everything ... " objection. This is true. There are many phenomena in the universe that science cannot explain, might never explain, is a poor tool to explain. But that does not mean we should fill the gap by saying, " ... therefore every wild claim is true."

Anyway, that is just one skeptical Buddhist's opinion, everyone is entitled to believe what they will.

Gassho, Jundo
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