Welcome admin !

It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:17 pm
Pathway:  Board index General Discussion Forum and Lounge Other Traditions

Chakra

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:34 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks for clearing that up and sharing your understanding, sounds healthy :)

Yes, I'd say that it's good to be sure that one's devotion is to the Dharma, if you become a student (take a teacher), and not to the teacher. It's good (and necessary) to have faith and trust in the teacher, but, I'd say, devotion is to the Dharma (not to a person).

This to me seems different from some guru-student relationships I've heard about, and seen. That's a different system in principle and practice. It's good not to confuse them.

And I was glad to reply to Jundo's question because a teacher is sure to understand and recognize items and signs in what one says about "opening-experiences" and their open aftermaths.

Although in Zen Buddhist practice "face-to-face" meeting is still the state-of-the-art in teaching / learning situations, nonetheless, when a teacher asks even from a distance about whether someone speaks from experience or is merely echoing books or re-mouthing "definitions", and one replies, it's like one is writing to a family-member.

rgds,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby Spike on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:42 pm

But, in this example, with any- or everybody else watching and listening.
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
User avatar
Spike
 
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:51 pm

Spike,

Spike wrote:But, in this example, with any- or everybody else watching and listening.

Sure, to match the context and milieu in which the teacher asked the question. No "privacy" assumed, nor sought, by either of us, Jundo and I.

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:53 pm

Thanks Joe.

Some "teachers" are "gurus" and vice versa.
The guru you speak of is ofcourse there because it serves a psychological need of people, being dependend on a teacher/guru might only enhance one's fascination with that which is but a product of mind but a good teacher won't allow such attachments or at least helps one recognize that fact when conditions are ripe.

Faith yes, dependency no. (at least for me in any type of relationship, humans, cats, material objects)
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:55 pm

Spike wrote:But, in this example, with any- or everybody else watching and listening.


I consider Joe family, as well as everyone here.
How else will we become "whole" or uncloud self-reference?
:daisy:
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:03 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks Joe.

Very welcome.. .

fukasetsu wrote:Some "teachers" are "gurus" and vice versa.
The guru you speak of is ofcourse there because it serves a psychological need of people, being dependend on a teacher/guru might only enhance one's fascination with that which is but a product of mind but a good teacher won't allow such attachments or at least helps one recognize that fact when conditions are ripe.

So I've read and heard. But I haven't had that experience within any formal Hindu sect or school of practice, so I have nothing to add to or detract from what you write above.

fukasetsu wrote:Faith yes, dependency no. (at least for me in any type of relationship, humans, cats, material objects)

May it be so, on into the future. Be well / stay well, Cousin ! ;)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:21 pm

Uncle,

I agree in the formal setting, besides the only Vendatic teacher I ever had an interest in didn't take any students, and had quite interesting things to say about "Hinduism and attachments" In any case the guru is never the "sadguru"
But generally I agree about "Hinduism"

The word relationship is a funny one, it "means" both relative and empty, strange how some relationship or "full of two"
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:35 pm

fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:The word relationship is a funny one, it "means" both relative and empty, strange how some relationship or "full of two"

See if this is useful, or interesting. It's from the "Favorite Dharma Gems" thread, on the current page of that thread:

    "...Buddhism does not believe that our relations to others can safely be entrusted to either chance or metaphysical insight. If they were left to chance, the weeds of the malice [that are endemic] to the human race would soon choke the frail wheat of a hard-won benevolence. If they were governed by metaphysical insight, complete aloofness [might] ensue. For, as we saw, ultimately, as far as true reality is concerned, it is quite impossible to enter into a real relation with other individuals, for the simple reason that separate selves or individuals do not really exist. ***

    *** Although 'friendliness' takes beings as they are not, it is nevertheless useful (kuśalamūla) as an antidote to hate."
( -- that is from E. Conze, Buddhist Thought In India)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:43 pm

Thanks Sir,

yes that was my point, I often say to friends "if there was such a thing as my mind and your mind we couldn't be having this conversation" :lol2:

They don't get it.
My mom has the talent of reading minds, but she doesnt understand what "reading minds" is, I gave up explaining.
Funny though how men were always afraid of her abilities in romantic relationships, you can see why ;)
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:58 pm

fuki,

Good one.

fukasetsu wrote:yes that was my point, I often say to friends "if there was such a thing as my mind and your mind we couldn't be having this conversation" :lol2:

They don't get it.
My mom has the talent of reading minds, but she doesnt understand what "reading minds" is, I gave up explaining.
Funny though how men were always afraid of her abilities in romantic relationships, you can see why ;)

"Shared intuition", a term I just made up, I think, is something that asserts itself within practice circles of people, I'd say. I think the more attuned the people are, and the more relaxed they are in each others' presence, and the more concerted they are together in the project of their group-practice, the more obvious and clear this sort of shared-intuition is, or can be.

It's especially strong when there is no mind. Or, that is, when there is no trace of "small-mind" covering what some people call Big mind (a Dharma heir of Maezumi Roshi calls his entire teaching program "Big Mind" practice, lately, Dennis Genpo Merzel Roshi). http://bigmind.org/

When your mind is no different from your teacher's mind, you can finally meet each other (even if you've "known" each other for decades); or, something like that. ;)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:18 pm

I think that's a good term Joe. :)

I'm familiar with the Big Mind school (as I am with the don't know mind school) not really my flavour but hail nonetheless.

Speaking of experiences, about 15 years ago I experienced the siddhi known as parakāya praveśanam, not sure what the dictionary means with "entering the bodies of others" But I once was "another persons body/mind" this happened spontaneously and no relation to practise just a "once in a lifetime thing" I guess.

Anyway what I learned from that experience is to never judge someone's feelings no matter how small they may seem to me, the person I became was so terrified and I became that person (including it's past/future) and had no idea that is what some people call "fear"
I couldn't feel that if confronted with a thousand flesh eating demons but that person felt that over seemingly "nothing"
I had this in detail on a blog once but I deleted it.

Very sobering experience, quiting smoking can be easy for some but impossible for somebody else for instance, from that day I could never judge someone's feelings, struggles, etc ever again. (oh I had slip ups)
I once saw a teacher say "if you can't even stop smoking how do you expect to practise the Buddhadharma"
Those words might be true only for him, but ofcourse his view is relative. ;)

I understand what you mean with "meeting" never had that with a teacher though, perhaps it's time to "get" one :lol2:

Tomato soup have many different flavours, even when you taste it you can't tell how it tastes to someone else,
unless you become them. :)

ps coming back to the teacher-student relationship, being subjected to parentification for 30 years, I'm well aware of the "guru sign" in an early stage, so no pitfalls there.
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:10 pm

Marcel,

OK, if it's not too early in the day for off-color humor, here goes (OT Advisory);

fukasetsu wrote:The word relationship is a funny one,...

A friend in grad school eons ago told me the following (his name was Joe, too):

"If you take the 'hips' out of 'relationships', you just have 'relations' ".

(he said his wife, a nurse by profession who often worked 12-hour night-shifts, told him that, and that she'd heard it one night on the job)

The things we remember! ;) But I remember too we talked that day about a new course coming up, in "Non-Linear Physics". And I joked, "To first-order, EVERYTHING is linear!" He thought that was almost as good as the joke his wife brought home.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Chakra

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:41 pm

:lol2:

thanks for the laugh Joe,
not too early at all, it's 20:40 here and in the midst of "diner" in bed while watching footy, it seems your time is relative :PP:

20170811_203804.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Chakra

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:57 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:

.....It's especially strong when there is no mind. Or, that is, when there is no trace of "small-mind" covering what some people call Big mind (a Dharma heir of Maezumi Roshi calls his entire teaching program "Big Mind" practice, lately, Dennis Genpo Merzel Roshi). http://bigmind.org/

When your mind is no different from your teacher's mind, you can finally meet each other (even if you've "known" each other for decades); or, something like that. ;)

--Joe


I would be extremely cautious about recommending Merzel to anyone on a Buddhist forum, given the scandalous and repeated history involved. This is especially true on ZFI since Merzel is no longer a Zen teacher (per his written and published pledge).
Caodemarte
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:18 am

Re: Chakra

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:53 pm

Tsao,

Caodemarte wrote:I would be extremely cautious about recommending Merzel to anyone on a Buddhist forum, given the scandalous and repeated history involved. This is especially true on ZFI since Merzel is no longer a Zen teacher (per his written and published pledge).

Roger, understood. I have no recommendations but also no cautions. I'm a "neutral". Though not born Swiss. Far from it.

Although regarding Mr. Merzel, I have practiced with Maezumi and two other of Maezumi's heirs in New York, so I honor their lineage. But I never had occasion to work with Dennis. I liked his promulgation of "Wilderness Retreats" (Sesshin) out on the countryside, just as Bernie had popularized "Street Retreats" in my hometown, in smack- (heroin-) neighborhoods. I'd been a wilderness hiker for years... .

My point was to bring in his concept of "Big Mind". As Marcel noted, it's not for him, and I'll say it's not for everybody. Nor for me, so far. But to put a down-to-Earth spin on "Buddhamind" as Dennis has done (at least so it seems to me, theoretically), is / was a nice eye-opener for a lot of people, and I tipped my desert-hat to the concept. And left it at that.

Because, ... give me that Old-Time religion. Chinese, or Japanese, almost as received. I'm good enough for it, and vice versa.

I'm for innovation, and refinement of practice forms in their new home(s). But I'm also for what Maezumi taught: "Swallow the fish WHOLE, and then spit out the bones."

Maybe too late for that anymore: Pioneering teachers seem to be few, now, and what (who... ) is predominating is / are, nowadays, their Western successors. But... it's still early-days, everywhere you look. WE have the Dharma, now. So let's not blow it.

Come on and let's put a few more RPM on that Dharma wheel. For all beings. Zing!

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Previous

Return to Other Traditions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest