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Congestion (follow up)

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby flutemaker on Thu May 11, 2017 8:24 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:<snip>

Always consult a medical doctor regarding any medical concerns or conditions."

<snip>


DW:

If you want an "official" excuse for my taking the liberty of sometimes opening my mouth and speaking about yoga, I studied it, for example, during a 2 years intensive course under the guidance of a native Indian, well known yoga therapist with international exposure, Jayaram Reddy Yogacharya, director of the "Patanjali School of Yoga", and a yoga teacher at "Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan". That gave me "hatha yoga, Iyengar style" teaching certification paper, accepted in the West. Regarding Qi-Gong, or selected "internal school" martial arts, I studied these also, under the guidance of native Chinese people respectively. This doesn't mean I was ever inclined to teach any of these myself, as the true perfection and mastery required to teach others, as I see it, is not about formal training or paper certifications, and is far beyond my reach, presently. (And for the same reason I was never inclined to teach flute-making or playing either, with the exception of providing quick care and maintenance guide when selling instruments of my own build.)

Speaking of doctors and medicine, unfortunately, I've been not using any sort of medical help, or medicines (be it chemical or otherwise) since the age of 10 (I soon will be 50). With the exception of 2 cases, at 12 my left hand was broken an I had to fix the misplacement of bones with the help of a doctor, and 9 years ago I visited a dentist with a case of sharp pain. That's all.

Irrespective of this, I have heard about a relatively "modern" psychological disorder, externally manifesting, for example, as a desire to dominate on Internet forums. As it is not recommended to continue participation in on-line communities where one may supposedly see cases of such behavior, I am inclined to follow the advice of the researchers promptly.

Respectfully,

FM
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu May 11, 2017 8:50 pm

FM,

Good about the past yoga practice with teachers, and the martial arts practice with teachers.

I hope, along with others at this forum, I'm sure, that you'll practice Zen Buddhism with teachers if you become fortunate enough to have the good opportunity to do that.

I think you have the wrong idea about my posting a medical-advice "disclaimer" on my posts on this topic. It's for my protection, ZFI protection, and protection of readers, who might try to substitute my "advice" and observations for something like professional and qualified medical advice or commentary, which it most definitely is not, nor offered that way. So a disclaimer is sensible. It has no bearing on your posts nor their contents.

As you are giving up internet forum participation about as readily as you report that you have given up the F-M business after a disappointment there, one could wonder if Zen Buddhist practice with a teacher and sangha might also strain other reserves or powers, or puncture thin skin, there, and I hope not, and still wish you and your teacher the best with such potential practice.

FM wrote:Respectfully,

Oh, yes; nice. Must be (moderator-) Doug's good influence. This is so different from a week ago... .

(Catch you on other boards, maybe, once you remove yourself from here, and delete more posts that you rue).

Chaoito, huevón,

--José Luís
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby flutemaker on Sat May 13, 2017 4:33 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:puncture thin skin

DW:

Yes, it's way much better to have a reputation of thin skinned, than, weaving the banner of "awakened wisdom/compassion", following the footsteps of master Nonin, aggressively pulling out of the board any other user whose views are a little bit incompatible with yours, of course "orthodox" and mainstream.

My memory is still holding the times when even Guo Gu laoshi (with both whom and Nonin I was in correspondence back then) expressed his serious concerns with regard to the forum atmosphere forming under authoritative treatment of non-compliers. What to say about just "regular" folks, tens of them was simply forced to leave.

Have you not received numerous notes from your [unfortunately] dharma brother, regarding the "compassion", treatment of other's views, and just simply regarding the forum ethics?

In relation to my doing business in real life, and the manner in which this is done, started, or closed, none of this is your business, and you may of course be fantasizing here as much as you please.

In respect to the "ask a doctor", "go to specialist" attitude, I couldn't really imagine to what degree the various kinds of brainwashing might penetrate one's bones and marrow in the United States. Killing the last bits of self-confidence and trust. Don't know what to do? Ask your local political leader. Want to fix a kitchen sink? Ask a maestro. Want to travel overseas? Buy an organized tour. Have a problem? Visit a psychologist. The Way is just not like this. One's true inquiry, originated from the depth of one's heart, one's own sources, energy, and potential, is not something to be put under the pressure of propaganda and ship-herd's kind of brainwashing. This is not to diminish the role of Zen teachers who constitute the organic part of the path, this is just to underline that the general attitude towards the way to freedom cannot be based to the "always ask mom" way to do things.

desert_woodworker wrote:Chaoito, huevón,


For those who are not familiar with the subtleties of Chilean slang, the usage of "weon/huevon" in relation to strangers, as well as friends, has always a double meaning. In the worst case, the outcome is quite often leading to open (physical) confrontation, and in rare cases it can be considered friendly (but just among very closed friends, to which, without even quick personal meeting, I doubt [hopefully erroneously] the author of the quoted remark was meaning to relate).

Respectfully,

FM

If any of the moderators is willing to actually "custom-edit" any of the posts here, in my opinion this just won't do, unless both parties agree to draw a line beyond which none is willing to place their "last word". Better, to simply cut the topic to the roots.
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat May 13, 2017 4:52 pm

Although Master Nonin, or Nonin Roshi, may be formally or officially retired, I hope he will still participate here at the Forum.

I find his replies and guidance always helpful, and most respectful. Thus far I have not met him personally, but only here in "print", in text. Yet, I feel we can sense his true heart of Compassion and Wisdom, and I feel his students have indeed been lucky to have, and to have had, him as teacher. Long life, Nonin! I hope you will come in and say a good word here when you want. Or perhaps I'll have to ask you a specific question first, since I think I heard through the grapevine (or "bamboo telegraph"?) that you have retired.

Kudos!, and thanks, to all teachers who participate here.

May true Dharma continue.

Best rgds, All,

--Joe
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby flutemaker on Sat May 13, 2017 6:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:May true Dharma continue.

During this, yet another real-time testing of my high-rise (thin and tall) building, showing that it is not holding properly even slight earthquake's "horizontal wave" patterns, this is to testify: I take no offense whatsoever, I intend no offense either, still I see no way to resolve certain issues by means of electronic media, and therefore, I want to just finish this long and boring argument, right away, as is, "unresolved", and am hoping you have enough patience and understanding to proceed the very same way.
52.jpg

~ FM
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat May 13, 2017 6:42 pm

FM,

Yes, Chile is "faulty". And as I like to say, so is California.

(stay safe as best one can).

As far as issues on-topic to the thread (or other threads) are concerned, I see no argument, see nothing needing resolution, and see nothing boring. You, or anyone, or me, "should" continue, and probably shall continue, to bring information, results of experience, and suggestions for research, study, and practice, in ways that a forum enables us to do. We and the forum can do no better, I'd say.

This can be my bottom-line on that meta-discussion.

If you mean you want to discontinue, or ask the Mderators to lock the current thread concerning "congestion", I have no comment one way or the other.

--Joe
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby Michaeljc on Sat May 13, 2017 9:25 pm

If one is practicing on one's own in the beginning without recourse to a guide, then the safe course of action is to at least stick to basic practice methods that do not have the potential to cause harm. When and if we start to experience some fruition of those methods, then it will be necessary to consult with a teacher.

Beyond that I couldn't say what's appropriate or inappropriate for a specific individual, of course. Take care!

Meido


This from another topic jumped out at me as being practical and wise. Likewise my experience shows that should we be sitting Zazen beyond approx 2 hours every day we are approaching what Meido has defined as serious practice. Note the 'take care'.

Having access to the long record of ZFI I am of the view that an insistence that orthodox practice is indispensable for all and everyone who visits here has not contributed to the overall health of the forum.

Those of us who continue with practice after many years have a responsibility to encourage others to taste the waters. According to my observation it is rare for most visitors here to have easy and low-cost access to a training center. These are the people most likely to visit an online forum Therefore we should encourage by recommending some simple practice that they can adopt at home until the seed starts to germinate. This is still Zen! IMO. In many cases they cannot simply throw a pack on their back and walk to various centres as was the case in ancient China.

A while back I flew over the great cattle stations of Northern Territory Australia. Many are a million acres or more. Water during much of the year is via bore holes and windmills. One could see the many paths radiating out from the water-points like spokes on a wheel. I am told that the cattle come in, water, then return to the landscape they know on the same path. They know nothing of another groups environment.

One only need to throw into posts the dependable IMO or IME to calm the waters.

My thoughts at this moment in time

m
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat May 13, 2017 10:16 pm

Michael, good to see you posting.

Because I've tasted both solo self-practice, and later, communal instruction and practice, I'll always recommend that interested people see a teacher in order to learn correctly as soon as possible, IF they are interested in Zen Buddhist practice.

As you know, the reason I always give for this recommendation is that Zen Buddhist practice comprises (or consists in) a multitude of practices, just one of which has come to be seen popularly as being defining, and indispensable.

In order to emphasize the actual greater panoply of practice, many of which practices are physical, and are relational, in view of and by virtue of their importantly involving other people, I made up the notion or meme of a "Baker's Do-Zen" ...of practices. See the relevant, living, thread here:

http://zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11265

(There is, besides, a comical and personal reference in the title, too, if you happen to know that Bernie Glassman Roshi [of NY] calls himself "a Baker" -- there's a history there of his sangha supplying New York hotels and restaurants with fine baked goods, a part of their way of sangha support and community service).

I agree with teachers here who have expressed the view that if a person does not practice in certain ways, or incorporate certain practices or practice-conditions, it is not yet Zen Buddhist practice as it has developed and been practiced for 2000 years. Far from meaning to be critical, I see these competent, teacherly expressions as meaning to be honest, and helpfully encouraging, in the right direction of serving the questioner and their potential practice by recommending to put it on a good footing at the soonest.

Well, that's definitely "as I see it", also ( ...you have encouraged that posters include this phrase).

Now, it goes without saying that it's possible that not everyone will accept that view, nor will implement the well-informed suggestions about it given by the teachers and others. And it's clear that some outright can't, or claim that they can't, begin Zen Buddhist practice. Those inabilities and claims of some do not obviate repeating the advice as new inquiries about practice arise, rephrasing it for the new questioners.

By the way, this thread is about "congestion". I myself have given tested suggestions for its alleviation, including: exercise; certain yoga practice; mindfully-stretching; non-specific physical work; a tai chi "form" that in particular can be practiced extensively in order to help; extended periods of slow "Ch'an Buddhist" prostrations of the body to and from the floor, learned from a teacher who practices this; short-term experimental caffeine-abstinence; "Pilates" exercise classes; and, I think, a few other things. Other members have offered other suggestions too, in -- I think -- the free and open atmosphere of sharing.

If there has developed some problem from suggesting these things, I haven't seen it, nor the putative reason(s) that could possibly cast the suggestions in a poor light.

But I'll allow now that this may be completely moot; I understand the thread is to be brought to an end.

Yet, I hope the suggestions registered here may help some sufferers of "congestion", however defined (holdings; habits; asymmetries; old-injury favorings; loci of psychosomatic foci; remanent surgical adhesions; etc.).

--Joe
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 15, 2017 4:02 pm

Regarding Nonin Roshi, referred to above on this page (page 2) of this thread, I note the following statement at the website of his temple and sangha in Omaha, Nebraska (USA), about his retirement after 25 years as abbot there at Nebraska Zen Center (NZC), effective about one year ago, last July:

    Rev. Nonin Chowaney, the group's first resident priest, served from 1991-July 31, 2016. Nonin is now retired, supported in part by NZC, and continues to live in Omaha.
:rbow:, Master Nonin, :Namaste: , happy retirement!,

--Joe
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby partofit22 on Tue May 16, 2017 12:59 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Michael, good to see you posting.

Because I've tasted both solo self-practice, and later, communal instruction and practice, I'll always recommend that interested people see a teacher in order to learn correctly as soon as possible, IF they are interested in Zen Buddhist practice.

As you know, the reason I always give for this recommendation is that Zen Buddhist practice comprises (or consists in) a multitude of practices, just one of which has come to be seen popularly as being defining, and indispensable.

In order to emphasize the actual greater panoply of practice, many of which practices are physical, and are relational, in view of and by virtue of their importantly involving other people, I made up the notion or meme of a "Baker's Do-Zen" ...of practices. See the relevant, living, thread here:

http://zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11265

(There is, besides, a comical and personal reference in the title, too, if you happen to know that Bernie Glassman Roshi [of NY] calls himself "a Baker" -- there's a history there of his sangha supplying New York hotels and restaurants with fine baked goods, a part of their way of sangha support and community service).

I agree with teachers here who have expressed the view that if a person does not practice in certain ways, or incorporate certain practices or practice-conditions, it is not yet Zen Buddhist practice as it has developed and been practiced for 2000 years. Far from meaning to be critical, I see these competent, teacherly expressions as meaning to be honest, and helpfully encouraging, in the right direction of serving the questioner and their potential practice by recommending to put it on a good footing at the soonest.

Well, that's definitely "as I see it", also ( ...you have encouraged that posters include this phrase).

Now, it goes without saying that it's possible that not everyone will accept that view, nor will implement the well-informed suggestions about it given by the teachers and others. And it's clear that some outright can't, or claim that they can't, begin Zen Buddhist practice. Those inabilities and claims of some do not obviate repeating the advice as new inquiries about practice arise, rephrasing it for the new questioners.

By the way, this thread is about "congestion". I myself have given tested suggestions for its alleviation, including: exercise; certain yoga practice; mindfully-stretching; non-specific physical work; a tai chi "form" that in particular can be practiced extensively in order to help; extended periods of slow "Ch'an Buddhist" prostrations of the body to and from the floor, learned from a teacher who practices this; short-term experimental caffeine-abstinence; "Pilates" exercise classes; and, I think, a few other things. Other members have offered other suggestions too, in -- I think -- the free and open atmosphere of sharing.

If there has developed some problem from suggesting these things, I haven't seen it, nor the putative reason(s) that could possibly cast the suggestions in a poor light.

But I'll allow now that this may be completely moot; I understand the thread is to be brought to an end.

Yet, I hope the suggestions registered here may help some sufferers of "congestion", however defined (holdings; habits; asymmetries; old-injury favorings; loci of psychosomatic foci; remanent surgical adhesions; etc.).

--Joe


And "armoring"-

I'm certain all suggestions serve a purpose, are beneficial -- to all- To some degree- What comes across as "pressuring", can come across as a "cause" of congestion- Again, to some- Nonetheless, it's been a very helpful thread- Lots to investigate -- gently, and un-rushed-
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 16, 2017 2:17 pm

p.,

partofit22 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Yet, I hope the suggestions registered here may help some sufferers of "congestion", however defined (holdings; habits; asymmetries; old-injury favorings; loci of psychosomatic foci; remanent surgical adhesions; etc.).

And "armoring"-

Thanks, Teresa. That's what I had called "holding" (and, "habits"). Some people just hold tension in certain places. Sometimes, it's accountable. Fortunately though, there's always a solution (for a dissolution): there are many "instruments and modalities". Some are direct, and quite pointed in focus. Some are general, and not only remove the holding, but the one "holding" (an example there would be correct Zen Buddhist practice).

I'd just quit "enjoying coffee". :lol2: :)X :heya:

--Joe

p.s. Something I left-out of the suggestions I gave is aerobic practice. For example, running (however slowly). If this is built-up gradually, distance-wise, or time-wise, so that the practitioner really enjoys it, can't go a day without it, and feels as if the distance run could be increased easily, say, doubled, without strain, then it usually goes along with the acculturation to this work that the body becomes pretty "smoothed-out", all the muscles (and nerves and plexuses) benefit, and the breathing muscle/diaphragm area are especially relaxed and strong. Caffeine is probably still to be eschewed.
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 16, 2017 2:57 pm

I wasn't at all informed if perhaps Rev. Nonin Chowaney had written and published any books to date, so I searched under his name, "Nonin Chowaney", at Amazon.

I see no books, alas; but I see some pulse-oximeter devices under that trademark name: "Nonin". Wonderful!

So, even if the Roshi has retired from teaching and training duties, you can still have a "Nonin" to check your heart (of Compassion? Wisdom?), and see if you are about maximally oxygenated, and ventilated (versus "full-of-stale-air").

Plus, "Got a heart-beat/pulse"? ;)

I hope Rev. Nonin may have a book in the works, though.

--Joe

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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby partofit22 on Sat May 20, 2017 3:33 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:p.,

partofit22 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Yet, I hope the suggestions registered here may help some sufferers of "congestion", however defined (holdings; habits; asymmetries; old-injury favorings; loci of psychosomatic foci; remanent surgical adhesions; etc.).

And "armoring"-

Thanks, Teresa. That's what I had called "holding" (and, "habits"). Some people just hold tension in certain places. Sometimes, it's accountable. Fortunately though, there's always a solution (for a dissolution): there are many "instruments and modalities". Some are direct, and quite pointed in focus. Some are general, and not only remove the holding, but the one "holding" (an example there would be correct Zen Buddhist practice).

I'd just quit "enjoying coffee". :lol2: :)X :heya:

--Joe

p.s. Something I left-out of the suggestions I gave is aerobic practice. For example, running (however slowly). If this is built-up gradually, distance-wise, or time-wise, so that the practitioner really enjoys it, can't go a day without it, and feels as if the distance run could be increased easily, say, doubled, without strain, then it usually goes along with the acculturation to this work that the body becomes pretty "smoothed-out", all the muscles (and nerves and plexuses) benefit, and the breathing muscle/diaphragm area are especially relaxed and strong. Caffeine is probably still to be eschewed.


It's been interesting .. how when something even begins to let go another stuck area is revealed- Not a complaint :) just an observation- No desire to abstain from caffeine -- at this moment- Same goes for water- And juice- No forcing involved, just measured pressure-
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby partofit22 on Sat May 20, 2017 3:44 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:(an example there would be correct Zen Buddhist practice).


My very first paying job as a teen was babysitting- The second was sort of a helper in a US Army recruiting office- It was a very quiet job, lots of sitting on the floor folding and stapling flyers while the recruiters sat at their desks and read books or stared out the window and off into space- Occasionally someone interested walked in but it wasn't often-
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 22, 2017 3:33 pm

Few are called, and few(er) are chosen. "Be all that you can be."

"The few, the proud... ".

"The strength to do good today".

"Looking for a few good ...minds."

:)

--Joe

A few retrospective (US) Army recruiting slogans are documented here at Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogans_of_the_United_States_Army

My Dad used to say: "Join the Navy and see the World ...through a porthole!" ;)
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby partofit22 on Tue May 23, 2017 2:19 am

:)

I was listening to a teacher speak one evening (not in person) and he very gently and in few words covered his take on Zen in America- And in so many words he described it as not quite welcoming, nor inviting- That Zen in America has somehow evolved into or has been perhaps half intentionally designed to attract certain types- And then said something comparable to, that area of American Zen is in need of improvement- I found his words both loving and liberating-

I guess there are all kinds of "congestion/s" in this life to be realized and addressed-
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 23, 2017 5:39 pm

p.,

Yeah, who knows where that teacher was coming from.

Zen Buddhism has largely been a monastic practice through the world until about the third quarter of last century, I'd say.

Then, after a bit of popularization through reading of writings by popularizers, many more lay-people have tried to find the traces, and a teacher and sangha. It's early days!

Yes, of course many things will change, if Zen Buddhist practice is to have a long history in the West as it's had elsewhere. And many things will not change.

For one, the radical nature of the practice, and the approaches to it, seem to be the very nature of Zen Buddhism: they serve to define it. Without this, "it" is another school entirely.

Other schools exist which treat and attract people who favor working more slowly, gradually, and gingerly. Zen Buddhism, as we know, "Gets at the root, not at the leaves and branches".

One may choose! And, thank goodness that there are choices available for different people who feel an affinity for one way of practice, or another.

The chief aspects of Zen Buddhist practice and teaching are, I'd say, Compassion, and Wisdom.

Some say that Zen Buddhism in the West -- and maybe historically in the East, too -- attracts a class of practitioners who are the more intellectual. These can be "hard-headed" people!, and maybe this is the clientele who the teacher you heard was speaking about particularly. My teacher used to chastise us sometimes, and say too that it is also the intellectuals who have the hardest time with Zen Buddhist practice, in relaxing into it and making it their own: they are always trying to "figure things out", he said. But nothing yields to that approach (nor does it in other schools of Buddhist practice, either, really. But in Zen Buddhism, the deck is even more strongly stacked against those who would take an approach based on intellect).

My suggestion for anyone who cultivates preconceived notions of Zen Buddhist practice, and who criticizes it or casts aspersions upon it on the basis of that ignorant prejudice, is that they should indeed begin Zen Buddhist practice themselves with teacher and sangha, and sincerely practice 15, 20 years, before making statements about how practice should "change", or must change. Those who have not done this are trying to talk through their hat. This means you, Teresa!, ...as you've written that you have not practiced formally at all, and so you would not know.

I hope everyone finds that to be clear.

If one wants to discuss "congestion" in schools of religious practice, then one had better discuss the school you have practiced in. Else, it just has no credibility, and comes back on you to embarrass you and shame you, as well it should.

With that issue clarified, it seems this thread has covered a lot of bases.

--Joe
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby partofit22 on Wed May 24, 2017 3:11 am

desert_woodworker wrote:p.,

Yeah, who knows where that teacher was coming from.

Zen Buddhism has largely been a monastic practice through the world until about the third quarter of last century, I'd say.

Then, after a bit of popularization through reading of writings by popularizers, many more lay-people have tried to find the traces, and a teacher and sangha. It's early days!

Yes, of course many things will change, if Zen Buddhist practice is to have a long history in the West as it's had elsewhere. And many things will not change.

For one, the radical nature of the practice, and the approaches to it, seem to be the very nature of Zen Buddhism: they serve to define it. Without this, "it" is another school entirely.

Other schools exist which treat and attract people who favor working more slowly, gradually, and gingerly. Zen Buddhism, as we know, "Gets at the root, not at the leaves and branches".

One may choose! And, thank goodness that there are choices available for different people who feel an affinity for one way of practice, or another.

The chief aspects of Zen Buddhist practice and teaching are, I'd say, Compassion, and Wisdom.

Some say that Zen Buddhism in the West -- and maybe historically in the East, too -- attracts a class of practitioners who are the more intellectual. These can be "hard-headed" people!, and maybe this is the clientele who the teacher you heard was speaking about particularly. My teacher used to chastise us sometimes, and say too that it is also the intellectuals who have the hardest time with Zen Buddhist practice, in relaxing into it and making it their own: they are always trying to "figure things out", he said. But nothing yields to that approach (nor does it in other schools of Buddhist practice, either, really. But in Zen Buddhism, the deck is even more strongly stacked against those who would take an approach based on intellect).

My suggestion for anyone who cultivates preconceived notions of Zen Buddhist practice, and who criticizes it or casts aspersions upon it on the basis of that ignorant prejudice, is that they should indeed begin Zen Buddhist practice themselves with teacher and sangha, and sincerely practice 15, 20 years, before making statements about how practice should "change", or must change. Those who have not done this are trying to talk through their hat. This means you, Teresa!, ...[b]as you've written that you have not practiced formally at all, and so you would not know.[/b]

I hope everyone finds that to be clear.

If one wants to discuss "congestion" in schools of religious practice, then one had better discuss the school you have practiced in. Else, it just has no credibility, and comes back on you to embarrass you and shame you, as well it should.

With that issue clarified, it seems this thread has covered a lot of bases.

--Joe


I don't know, Joe- I considered what he said and that he might be speaking from experience and not some preconceived notion- He might have been sharing his wisdom in an effort to encourage compassion in an area where he considered it's lacking- He didn't come across in a criticizing manner, he carefully stated his opinion -- and your own personal experience appears to reinforce his-

I'm free to discuss the above ^ respectfully- Dharma talks are generously offered on the interweb- I'm not ashamed or embarrassed of taking an interest in the above and taking notice of any benefit that comes as a result of taking what someone has to say into consideration- Call what he expressed a description of whatever best fits the type of the behavior he described-

Yes, I have said that I have not practiced formally at all- But perhaps not often enough- Thank you, for reinforcing that too .. :)
But again .. I'm neither embarrassed or ashamed of taking even a little bit of an interest- A star dust mote, or smaller- Taking a little bit of interest isn't interesting to most, there's that, too- Which also is good -- to notice ..

:)
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed May 24, 2017 11:58 pm

p., Teresa,

No, I don't reinforce that teacher's position, regarding changes to Zen Buddhist practice (or etc.) in the West. The reason is that I do not know what the teacher said. Any semblances are merely circumstantial, or wishful thinking on someone's part (not mine).

I stress that it's important to have one's own experience, one's own basis, in order to make a judgement of what's actually what, and what's fitting. This is not easy for anyone to come by. Give it 20 years and more, I say, in formal practice. Then, let's talk. A lot. Or, a little. Depending on what seems needed.

Without that, it's all farting, farting, farting.

I'm not a teacher, though. Not even close. But a sangha is made of many people (...one way to look at it).

--Joe
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Re: Congestion (follow up)

Postby partofit22 on Thu May 25, 2017 5:01 am

desert_woodworker wrote:p., Teresa,

No, I don't reinforce that teacher's position, regarding changes to Zen Buddhist practice (or etc.) in the West. The reason is that I do not know what the teacher said. Any semblances are merely circumstantial, or wishful thinking on someone's part (not mine).

I stress that it's important to have one's own experience, one's own basis, in order to make a judgement of what's actually what, and what's fitting. This is not easy for anyone to come by. Give it 20 years and more, I say, in formal practice. Then, let's talk. A lot. Or, a little. Depending on what seems needed.

Without that, it's all farting, farting, farting.

I'm not a teacher, though. Not even close. But a sangha is made of many people (...one way to look at it).

--Joe


Joe, the teacher doing the speaking spoke from the measure of experience you suggest- And your experience was similar to what he expressed- Neither of which came across as judging but encouraging- If it took 20 plus years to be released, it took 20 plus years-
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