Welcome admin !

It is currently Fri May 26, 2017 3:51 pm
Pathway:  Board index General Discussion Forum and Lounge Other Traditions

Not a Koan curriculum

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 02, 2017 6:01 pm

flutemaker wrote:Say, I have to undertake something requiring warm weather, and I see the weather is not good, cold, etc. Nonetheless I intentionally am going to wear light closing (that should make my business even more uncomfortable) thus "increasing my necessity" for warm weather... "bodily", so to speak.

Thanks for the concrete example, FM. This clarifies your meaning, for me.

I'd use other words. I would leave out "necessity" entirely. To continue with your example-scenario, I'd say, further:

    "Yes, I'll intentionally wear the Aloha shirt and the Bermuda shorts despite the unwelcome cold weather this morning. This will surely 'tempt fate', and display my stubbornness and impracticality, plus my unwillingness to harmonize with conditions, while also showing for all to see and announcing to the powers-that-be my pathetic vulnerability, ...which I attempt to make into a virtue."
But, now, if the fellow were to wear a snow-suit over the Hawai'an shirt and shorts... . :tongueincheek:

Walkers in the mountain paths know that "layers" (or layering) is a good -- and safe -- way to dress. There's no real practical virtue or advantage in increasing one's vulnerability.

Well, just as I view it this Spring day.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6252
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby flutemaker on Tue May 02, 2017 7:32 pm

desert_woodworker wrote: There's no real practical virtue or advantage in increasing one's vulnerability.

The guy in the story, in your opinion, was about to just actually face death, or was to play tricks with the [seemingly] unchangeable "fate"?

I'll try to provide another example (of my own understanding). Say, someone is about to travel through a sequence of countries, each one requiring rather complicated procedure of getting entry visa for the next one. This someone can travel on a return ticket (so in case of visa rejection there is a way back), or on a one-way ticket only (limiting themselves intentionally to move "only forward" no matter what). If you had experience of long multi-country overland travels (like, in certain parts of middle east, or through huge parts of SE Asia) you'd probably see my point better.
flutemaker
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:54 pm
Location: out

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby organizational on Tue May 02, 2017 8:00 pm

flutemaker wrote:certain parts of middle east, or through huge parts of SE Asia)


You are my favorite FM.
Follow White
User avatar
organizational
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:53 pm

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby macdougdoug on Tue May 02, 2017 9:59 pm

Sounds like stuff a child or a teenager would do all the time - or a French intellectual (purely by thinking himself into a corner). Why is the character in your story doing that stuff (dressing for summer in winter etc) ?
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby [james] on Tue May 02, 2017 10:03 pm

flutemaker wrote:
footnote wrote:The title is taken from Jalaludin Rumi’s famous poem: “New organs of perception come into being as a result of necessity. Therefore, O man, increase your necessity, so that you may increase your perception.”


Could one also say "accept your necessity so that you may extend your perception"?

Having travelled with and without onward passage, and with and without sufficient funding, necessity was, in both circumstances, ever present and compelling. Necessity does not need to be deliberately increased. Ignore and avoid necessity and it will increase of its own accord until it is acknowledged in a skillful and perceptive manner. I have often refused to listen to the necessities that were present to me, doing things in a clumsy way, repeatedly, to the point of telling myself in near desperation that "there must be a better way of doing this". Suddenly something clicks. I change my approach and listen to the situation more carefully and that particular necessity is satisfied.

Necessity, I think, wants and needs to be satisfied. Necessity speaks to us and can be an ally. I don't feel that necessity is something to be manipulated.
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 02, 2017 10:18 pm

fm,

flutemaker wrote:The guy in the story, in your opinion, was about to just actually face death, or was to play tricks with the [seemingly] unchangeable "fate"?

Well, it's fiction. I'd repeat that there's no value or virtue in making oneself extra-vulnerable, nor in supposing that one already is so. We're ordinary people. Stories like that one are just fantasy-inducing brainwashings, which I think enough people already suffer enough from, enough of the time, but even worse when true-believer-sufferers rely upon such a story to represent or become the story of their own life.

I'd say, too, but instead of what the story says: "New organs of perception are not new, but come into activity as a result of being uncovered from their previously buried positions. Therefore, O man, begin proper practice in proper circumstances with teacher and sangha, so that you may uncover these organs of perception, by various necessary purifications, if you truly want to increase your perception.”

I'll try to provide another example (of my own understanding). Say, someone is about to travel through a sequence of countries, each one requiring rather complicated procedure of getting entry visa for the next one. This someone can travel on a return ticket (so in case of visa rejection there is a way back), or on a one-way ticket only (limiting themselves intentionally to move "only forward" no matter what). If you had experience of long multi-country overland travels (like, in certain parts of middle east, or through huge parts of SE Asia) you'd probably see my point better.

Let's not talk about logistics and nimbleness that may need to be redeemed and enabled: that's private. I can see points about Zen Buddhist practice, generally. I think that's what's relevant for discussion. Everything else is whining, and caterwauling.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6252
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 02, 2017 10:36 pm

[james],

[james] wrote:Necessity does not need to be deliberately increased.

I agree with this.

I feel that perhaps the word translated to "necessity" in English does not actually mean "necessity". There's a lot of unfortunate mis-translation going on, in religious circles, I'd say, with concomitant sufferations. (Witness the 250-year-old ham-handed "enlightenment" farrago).

Ignore and avoid necessity and it will increase of its own accord until it is acknowledged in a skillful and perceptive manner.

True, I'd say. It rears its head around here sometimes in the form of expensive repairs needed as a result of err-r, "deferred maintenance": not attending regularly to what truly needs attending-to.

Excuses exist; here are some I've, err-r collected (i.e., am guilty of):

    (1.) On why the roof doesn't get patched:
    "When it's raining, you can't patch it;
    when it's not raining, it doesn't need patching";

    (2.) On why the walls of the mud-adobe casa don't get re-coated:
    "Too poor to paint; too proud to whitewash."
:Namaste:,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6252
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby [james] on Wed May 03, 2017 12:11 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Excuses exist

Aplenty,
and at the end of the day,
after all is said and done,
whatever is hoped for or feared ...
there is no escape.
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Not a Koan curriculum

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed May 03, 2017 1:09 am

[james] wrote:...and at the end of the day,
after all is said and done,
whatever is hoped for or feared ...
there is no escape.

Yessir. And this/that is what Bodhisattvas keep coming back for ("signing-up for").

Some also say
there is no "end of the day";
Seems right:
...Astronomers work a hard-day's night.

(wrote that myself!)

:tongueincheek:

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6252
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Previous

Return to Other Traditions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest