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Islams Koan (long one)

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:44 pm

https://quran.com/7/182-192

I believe it is not important what we follow, our ethics and moral matter, however that doesn't mean blindly following to the extent of sexual immorality (the lowest one can get). I haven't solved this quan yet, but i know we try to reach peace. The only way we Muslims and Buddhists can unite is after the 'final day'. I think people experience gaps for their propensity to sexual immorality, and beyond that we have to get up. Another way of saying enlightened is to say upright (getting up erect). Well, life is meant for competing about good deeds. Competition for a fire, and good deeds for water. But people don't know the art of competition, yet, because they care about being sexually immoral.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby anka on Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:45 pm

Sexually immoral seems quite vague. Can you get more specific on this. Also what is considered "the final day". Unfortunately real knowledge of the Islam faith in the United States is mostly limited to extreme bias and negativity because of the action a few militant followers.
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:52 pm

Sexuality. It is the discerning factor between morality and immorality, what everything boils (down or up) to

The final day aka apocalypse is the last day of our epoch. Which is 7000 years so far. Then Allah will establish justice on this earth by jesus and imam mehdi. There will be war, known as Ragnarok in Norse religion.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:48 pm

L,
Looks like the quote you referenced is about ignorance and the destruction of ignorance. There are many ideas about what ignorance is... each religion and even each person has a version. Some ideas overlap, actually many do; cross-culturally, there is a standard of decency. It goes off the mark with bias and misunderstanding.

the word "destruction" in your quote might lead us to assume this is manifest as violence depending on the degree of ignorance/bias. But, it can also be seen as no different from Manjushri's sword cutting thru ignorance. The best we can hope for is to understand our bias and assumptions... and allow others theirs. I know a Christian minister who teaches zen koans ... and whose father practices Islam... it is the basis for a rich dialogue. Generalizing on morality is simply divisive.

BTW, koans do not have one solution... koans are about our lives. They involve meeting some of the issues that you raise.

"It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."
~ Thomas Paine
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:24 pm

Not simply morality, but sexual morality.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:58 pm

Islam agrees with Thomas Paine in your quote, actually he agrees with Islam, but it awaits disbelievers painful punishment because they don't submit to Allah and glorify the prophet Muhammed (being sarcastic and making cartoons), since there is rebirth, vengance is ours. If course there'll be a discussion and thei'll lose and start the fight. We are not like Jews whom remembers but forgives. Like it says in the above chapter they are respited. We are not powerless now in the name of Allah.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby [james] on Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:53 am

Lunarious1987 wrote: vengance is ours
We are not powerless now
Peace


What is peace?
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:32 am

[james] wrote:
Lunarious1987 wrote: vengance is ours
We are not powerless now
Peace


What is peace?

Peace is not love. Think peace treaty in war. It is a mutual agreement to cease fire. Vengance is revenge, it is payback. Everyone gets what he does. We are peaceful in the sense we are defensive and do not initiate attacks. Buddhists open their palm, they clench their fist in hatred, we have it half open half closed, tiger-fist.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby [james] on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:20 am

Lunarious1987 wrote: Vengance is revenge, it is payback.

Payback for what?
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby anka on Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:05 pm

Lunarious1987 wrote:Peace is not love. Think peace treaty in war. It is a mutual agreement to cease fire. Vengance is revenge, it is payback. Everyone gets what he does. We are peaceful in the sense we are defensive and do not initiate attacks. Buddhists open their palm, they clench their fist in hatred, we have it half open half closed, tiger-fist.

Peace


What experience are you drawing when you say Buddhists clench their fists in hatred?

Being ready to fight, as you say "defensive do not initiate attacks but have hands tiger-fisted" sounds painfull. How can you bring compassion to the world if you are always like a spring waiting to unleash? How can you help others when you are constantly looks behind you for the first strike. How can you be in the moment if your mind is elsewhere?
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:18 pm

@James and @anka

1. Payback. It is payback for being ugly in the heart and spreading vice and (evil) temptation. Islam says that spreading vice is more evil and worse than killing. And even killing is bad, unless it is self-defence. Sometime we can just ignore them, but other times we have to defend ourelves.

2. I dont say all believers clench their fist in hatred, i say disbelievers do. Hatred is snot only deliberately doing something hateful like attacking, it is also influencing by tempting like sexual immorality. There is even a Chinese quote which says: "If someone thinks he can do it, he who think he cant shouldnt interrupt the one who thinks he can do it." So those sexuallly iimmoral interrupt us all the time by tempting us. Being a disbeliever is being full of hatred, there are those who hate everywhere, good belong with good and evil belong with evil. Whe cant have it such that an evil guy flirts with a good girl, even if the girl, the good giirl is attracted to the evil guy. I mean with evil guy that he pretends to be not in need of her and wants to have her a slave. In fact, the evil guy should be honsest and exposed and be slave of the good girl. That means also he will suffer.

As for not looking behing my back, I didnt sleep for 3 years in the hospital when they weere torrturing me and they were watching me 24/7. As we know, masters dont like that anyone sees them while they are training. That was exthasting. But I demolished them. Even if now i am out of energy. I have only memories.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:19 pm

@James and @anka

1. Payback. It is payback for being ugly in the heart and spreading vice and (evil) temptation. Islam says that spreading vice is more evil and worse than killing. And even killing is bad, unless it is self-defence. Sometime we can just ignore them, but other times we have to defend ourelves.

2. I dont say all believers clench their fist in hatred, i say disbelievers do. Hatred is snot only deliberately doing something hateful like attacking, it is also influencing by tempting like sexual immorality. There is even a Chinese quote which says: "If someone thinks he can do it, he who think he cant shouldnt interrupt the one who thinks he can do it." So those sexuallly iimmoral interrupt us all the time by tempting us. Being a disbeliever is being full of hatred, there are those who hate everywhere, good belong with good and evil belong with evil. Whe cant have it such that an evil guy flirts with a good girl, even if the girl, the good giirl is attracted to the evil guy. I mean with evil guy that he pretends to be not in need of her and wants to have her a slave. In fact, the evil guy should be honsest and exposed and be slave of the good girl. That means also he will suffer.

As for not looking behing my back, I didnt sleep for 3 years in the hospital when they weere torrturing me and they were watching me 24/7. As we know, masters dont like that anyone sees them while they are training. That was exthasting. But I demolished them. Even if now i am out of energy. I have only memories.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby anka on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:24 pm

Hi Lumi,

You often mention good and evil, but you are the one defining these. Everyone has different life experiences and that shapes the way they view the world. With knowing their background making any assumption as to their motive and reasoning is worthless.

Someone you view as evil may not be view as such by thousands of others. Just food for thought.
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:36 pm

Humans have free will. The prophet Muhammed says he who does good is more good than goodness, and he who does evil is more evil than evilness. There are those who insist to break you down, coupled with a group of people and peer pressure, it is impossible to save them. Even by a sngle bodhisattva. They need to be eliminated or rendered slaves. There is a difference between being ignorant and doing evil, and having free will adn chosing deliberatelly to do evil. Those we wipe out.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby anka on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:38 pm

I will ask again, who is the one that deems someone evil or good?
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:53 pm

Allah does. He says in the Quran to those whom thinks they are guardins over certain people because they are weak and tender. Who appointed you a guarding over them? Like the police or the governments of the world. Who says they are soveregin. I respect law though, but divine law. Who appointed youo guardins oer them? Angels unlke humans dont have free will. They are the trusted and loyal servants of God, and God is the only onne who can say.

Ive made a poem when I was in the hospiital. Because they had me in four walls and kept me in "darkness". Noone dared to do anything to help me. Some even cried becaues I made them feel how unjustt they were with my will. I said:

Wakeful at sleepless nights, no alibies, trying to find a way... and who can say.
Honor has gone before, my lady at the door searching for a way, and then go play..
With the garden tools i gave today, planting a flower for yesterday, doing what she reallly wants and who can say nay.

God decides. The masters use they influence like the pope and the Sistani in Iraq, and the politician use direct power but have to respect the clean Masters. And Fear God. Who knows what can happen? What God can do. Masters how power of their own, influence.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby anka on Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:03 pm

I see, unfortunately practices that require absolute faith in an omnipotent being have never sat well with me. That is one of the reasons why Zen resonates so strongly. Best of luck on your path.
anka
 
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:47 pm

You're weak.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby anka on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:50 pm

That is your opinion and it's fine if you feel that way.
anka
 
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Re: Islams Koan (long one)

Postby [james] on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:57 pm

Lunarious1987 wrote:You're weak.

This might be said in compassionate understanding, in arrogant disdain or in ignorant presumption perhaps. How do you mean to say it?

Lunarious1987 wrote:It is payback for being ugly in the heart and spreading vice and (evil) temptation


Being ugly in heart is in itself already painful and difficult. How unfortunate to live one's life in this hurtful state. Why add to that misery with additional judgement and punishment?
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