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The physical effects of meditation.

Discussion of other spiritual or religious traditions with Zen in mind.

Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:05 pm

Michael,

Michaeljc wrote:Its unfortunate that the discussion got so far off-topic. I do have a personal interest in the relationship between zazen and the physical state

There are physical effects, and then there are brain effects. I'm only disappointed that the thread does/did not concern physical effects (as the title would mislead us into expecting).

Why be astonished if zazen has repercussions upon the brain? Petting a CAT has repercussions upon the brain. And blood-pressure.

Don't buy-in to the OP's claim that anyone is "knocking" the researchers.

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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby chankin1937 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:32 pm

Joe wrote: I'm only disappointed that the thread does/did not concern physical effects (as the title would mislead us into expecting).


This is a typical Joe post.
He revels in misrepresentation.
Of course the OP quotes scientific research into the changes in structure of the brain after a short course of meditation.

Joe : Don't buy-in to the OP's claim that anyone is "knocking" the researchers.


There have been posts doing exactly that. Whether I claimed that or not is another matter.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:36 pm

Colin,

I comment on a couple of small points:

chankin1937 wrote:This is a typical Joe post.

Well, no. Every one of my posts -- new thread openers, or replies -- is particular, instead.

He revels in misrepresentation.

No revelling going on, just revelation. I take no pleasure in seeing misrepresentation, nor in responding to it with accurate information, by counteraction, and counter-offering. Granted, I take a view that is not unorthodox, and this comes naturally with the territory that opens when one is an actual practitioner. No one is to be blamed.

Of course the OP quotes scientific research into the changes in structure of the brain after a short course of meditation.

You make my point. If you have no physical effects of "your own" to write about, you bring in second- and third-party reports about observations made at a distance of ...brains. Pet a cat. (not a PET scan)

Everything is at a remove for you Colin -- No teacher, but old books. No Dharma, but supports for ego, for self. No Sangha, but preference for the echo-chamber of the parochial, provincial backwater boondocks of "one's own company". Things at a "remove" was not the condition for people who are your frequently-quoted heroes of Zen Buddhism. They had teachers, sanghas, and lived the Buddhaway, the Buddhatao. Else, they could not have awakened, nor taught other generations (dispensed efficacious medicine for beings' awakening, without harming them).

These notes are not to knock brain-scanning researchers -- nor to disparage you. But merely to state that there is a perspective that you have closed yourself to -- reality -- and to reliance on first-person experience, versus records of various third-parties, which you paste and post like palimpsests.

(no reply needed, as, again, I write at the start above these are small points).

rgds,

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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:03 pm

Joe,
Chankin1937 wrote: Of course the OP quotes scientific research into the changes in structure of the brain after a short course of meditation.


Joe wrote: You make my point. If you have no physical effects of "your own" to write about, you bring in second- and third-party reports about observations made at a distance of ...brains. Pet a cat. (not a PET scan)


Nothing I could say would make the slightest dent in your bigotry. So I quoted the experts, thinking they might encourage some people.

Everything is at a remove for you Colin -- No teacher, but old books. No Dharma, but supports for ego, for self. No Sangha, but preference for the echo-chamber of the parochial, provincial backwater boondocks of "one's own company". Things at a "remove" was not the condition for people who are your frequently-quoted heroes of Zen Buddhism. They had teachers, sanghas, and lived the Buddhaway, the Buddhatao. Else, they could not have awakened, nor taught other generations (dispensed efficacious medicine for beings' awakening, without harming them).


Then they are well worth quoting!

These notes are not to ……….to disparage you.


Your kidding aren’t you?

But merely to state that there is a perspective that you have closed yourself to -- reality -- and to reliance on first-person experience, versus records of various third-parties, which you paste and post like palimpsests.


Read “21st Century Zen” on the blue button. You won’t find that in any books.

(no reply needed, as, we will only get the same old bigoted invective. )
Colin
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:44 pm

Gimme them good ole zen bigots! :PP:

If there is no such thing as zen, is there such a thing as zen bigotry? I'm sure it is much better than ordinary bigotry.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:03 pm

A crowd stands in the rain and watches the sporting event unfold before them
Each has a different view. Not all are wrong or right ... just different
Does it make sense to argue over and over again??
Well, may be not but it seems like such fun ... hahaha
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Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:01 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:Nothing I could say would make the slightest dent in your bigotry. So I quoted the experts, thinking they might encourage some people.

You're right -- no bigotry, no "dent".

Make it easy on yourself. Bring in some "physical effects" discussion, and validate the subject-line of your relocated thread. Leave the third-party peeks at brains to others. Now, what physical effects?

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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:05 pm

chankin1937 wrote:You won’t find that in any books.

Umm, yes. Let me count the reasons... . :PP:

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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Avisitor on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:27 am

It becomes a habit .. has a force of it own
When two battle with words and ideas, no one is the winner
It travels from thread to thread and fouls up the screen with non-sense
And all who read this back and forth, lose interest and see not the truth of Zen Buddhism
Please take the enlightened action and change your choice and intent to be the better person


This is a plea to those who wish to continue putting this atmosphere of the blind trying to leading the blind
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:42 am

ok, more gas for this fire:

Harvard MRI Study Shows That Meditation Literally Rebuilds Your Brain’s Gray Matter In 8 Weeks - (sorry, I forget how to get the title into the link)

http://www.simplecapacity.com/2015/12/harvard-mri-study-shows-that-meditation-literally-rebuilds-your-brains-gray-matter-in-8-weeks/

A study conducted by a Harvard affiliated team out of Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) came across surprising conclusions regarding the tangible effects of meditation on human brain structure. An 8 week program of mindfulness meditation produced MRI scans for the first time showing clear evidence that meditation produces “massive changes” in brain gray matter.



This is materialistic, if you want that. You'll never find me in an MRI, never! It is based on so-called mindfulness meditation which is apparently problematic from a zen point of view. I am not taking sides here but it does remind me of an article I read tonight about the polarization of our (US) political parties where there is no possible way to compromise or make a deal, such are the extremes. itsok for zen perhaps, but not for our political system... where is the mindfulness?? Ofc, IMO, we are fools to believe that structural changes have much to do with function.... until that is proven. so perhaps I am taking sides.

Colin, in looking back, you did not offer the source of your quotes or their context in the OP. IMO, this is a must when we quote others and it has potential to put things in perspective. It's not enough to use quote to shore up our position.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Avisitor on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:54 am

Linda Anderson wrote:ok, more gas for this fire:

It is based on so-called mindfulness meditation which is apparently problematic from a zen point of view.

Why is mindfulness meditation apparently problematic from a Zen point of view?
Please explain your point of view

Linda Anderson wrote:Colin, in looking back, you did not offer the source of your quotes or their context in the OP. IMO, this is a must when we quote others and it has potential to put things in perspective. It's not enough to use quote to shore up our position.

Agreed.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:35 am

Avisitor wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:ok, more gas for this fire:

It is based on so-called mindfulness meditation which is apparently problematic from a zen point of view.

Why is mindfulness meditation apparently problematic from a Zen point of view?
Please explain your point of view


I don't claim that POV, it has been expressed on this forum.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:56 pm

Linda,
Linda Anderson wrote: Colin, in looking back, you did not offer the source of your quotes or their context in the OP. IMO, this is a must when we quote others and it has potential to put things in perspective. It's not enough to use quote to shore up our position.


Hello Linda,
Point taken. I will do better in future [hopefully].
Colin
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Avisitor on Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:21 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:ok, more gas for this fire:

It is based on so-called mindfulness meditation which is apparently problematic from a zen point of view.
Why is mindfulness meditation apparently problematic from a Zen point of view?
Please explain your point of view



I don't claim that POV, it has been expressed on this forum.

Oh, sorry, I thought those were the words you used to express an idea you possessed??
Personally, I didn't see it as problematic.

Meditation is good whether it is mindfulness or Zazen or basic watching the breath
Why would it be problematic?
Well, never mind then ... it isn't your point of view ... just something you said??
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:13 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:Harvard MRI Study Shows That Meditation Literally Rebuilds Your Brain’s Gray Matter In 8 Weeks

Petting a cat will do it in 7 seconds.

(it changes cats' brains, too).

On these points, you may quote me (but no need). It's my own experience, and research, ...to be shared freely. :heya:

:Namaste:

--Joe

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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby Caodemarte on Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:30 pm

I don't think mindfulness as currently taught in the US as a stress reduction method is problematic; it just is not zen meditation (although anything, like bowling, can be used as zen meditation).
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:15 pm

C.,

Caodemarte wrote:I don't think mindfulness as currently taught in the US as a stress reduction method is problematic; it just is not zen meditation (although anything, like bowling, can be used as zen meditation).

Maybe you DO mean bowling, I don't know. But maybe you mean "bowing". As in, say, prostrations.

I'd say that zazen is the practice of Zen Buddhism closest to "meditation". The other practices are other practices, not practiced in too different a state of mind from zazen, but they are not zazen, nor are they "meditation" (nor "used" (?) as "meditation"). :heya:

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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby JessicaLeigh on Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:42 am

Well, some physical effects I've noticed in myself since taking up the practice are: a greater level of energy; less fatigue/hazinesss; reduced craving for sweets and alcohol; more stable sleep (a big change for me, as I have struggled with insomnia a great deal in the past); less chronic muscular tension; alignment/posture is changing. In general, just knowing what is going on with the body, and being able to work with it and deal with it, or make adjustments - is a critical positive impact, for me. Just learning to stop fighting the body, is quite wonderful.
"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." -Andrè Gide
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Re: The physical effects of meditation.

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:22 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Petting a cat will do it in 7 seconds.

(it changes cats' brains, too).


True that :heya:
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