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True Self, Eternal Self

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True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fragrant herbs on Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:40 pm

I found this commentary on Non Self and True Self online, and it appears to me that Buddha, in his later years talked about our True Self, but I was lead to believe in Zen Buddism that we had no Self, especially not an Eternal Self. I would like to know what the Zen students and teachers here think of these commentaries on the Mahaparinirvana sutra. Does Buddha teach both non-Self and the Self? If so, why are we not taught this? Or are some of us taught this?
Here are the links: http://www.nirvanasutra.net/ and http://www.holisticshop.co.uk/articles/ ... tra-buddha
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:47 pm

fragrant herbs wrote:but I was lead to believe in Zen Buddism that we had no Self, especially not an Eternal Self. I would like to know what the Zen students and teachers here think of these commentaries on the Mahaparinirvana sutra.


Hi,
Discussions about non-self/self are acrobats of mind.
before I can express my angel of vision on this, may I ask you first how you preceive the expedient of non-self, why it came into being, why the Buddha gave this teaching, i.e. to what function?

Please remember that the dharma is about insights into whatever presents itself and not about objective knowledge and giving opinions/fabrications regarding any text or commentary.

Regarding on what "one is led to belief" I doubt any teacher would let you believe anything, on the contrary it is usually about the destruction of mistaken believes instead of adding to the already gazillions of preconceived ideas and beliefs people have. But regarding "Zen Buddhism" to me the true teacher is not the objective teacher, they are kind and compassionate beings who assist and guide one to recognize one's very nature. It is never the idea to believe whatever they say as "truth" or anything, it is of temporary expedient value only. In the end it's still external, wordly knowledge, something people merely add ("cover up") to ones natural state, which is counterproductive, so no teacher I know lets you believe anything.

Thanks.
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby bubuyaya on Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:17 am

fragrant herbs wrote:I found this commentary on Non Self and True Self online, and it appears to me that Buddha, in his later years talked about our True Self.
but I was lead to believe in Zen Buddism that we had no Self, especially not an Eternal Self.
I would like to know what the Zen students and teachers here think of these commentaries on the Mahaparinirvana sutra.


When you, fragrant herbs, know yourself,
what is related above qwestion, such as some words', meanings', memories', doubts' and opionions' etc,
then you,fragrant herbs, shall directly see the only eternal yourself is all, which is the true Buddha,
which is the Mahaprajnaparamitta, which is the Mahaparnirnana, which is zen.

Therefore Jesus say, "I am Alpfa and Omega."
Buddha say, " I am the Holy solitary, in and out of whole space."

So first of all, have right belief about Buddha and yourself.
"I am All."

Without you, whatever anything cannot appear to you.
When you return to yourself, whatever everthing is the made of you.
Even whatever dimensions of time and space all are the made of you.

With right belief, people can rightly prove
that themself and whole sentient beings have the same Buddha nature.

For simple example,
See this single letter "I".
I am 'I", and "I" is Me.

Likewise,
all is Me, and I am all.

Any doubts?
Then that's just the made of you.
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Kojip on Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:28 am

"No-self" and "True-Self" are both antidotes to fixed view. If either is clung to as an end and becomes itself a fixed view, the antidote becomes the problem. "Life" is not reducible to either No-self or True-self, practice is not about dwelling in a view.

I doubt the historical Buddha spoke of True Self. Those words were attributed to him long after his death... Buddhism evolved and so did the teachings, and for sake of legitimacy it was given that pedigree. Originally the Buddha spoke of "anatman" as an antidote to eternal Atman-Brahman, which was apparently the prevailing view at the time of his ministry. It is worth looking up the teaching on the extremes "eternalism" and "nihilism" .


That's one view. richard /\
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby TigerDuck on Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:11 am

Beginner level:
Someone who has a sense of self, that person needs to realize no-self.
What that person thinks to exist, it actually never exists.
A person may think a rabbit has a horn, but reality can be different with what he/she thinks about.

Advanced level:
Someone that has a sense of no-self needs to realize no-notion or be clear of any notions.
Anyone that asserts no-self has actually seen self to be negated/said.
No one ever thinks about "fire is not sour", because to negate 'sour', he/she must see 'sour' first inside fire. If you don't see any sourness inside fire, how can you even think 'not sour'?

Similarly, if we still see no-self, you still see 'self' although it is not too bad as compared to the beginner level.

Final level:
Anyone that completely and truly does not see 'self' will never see no-self as well.

Clear of any notions.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Kojip on Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:27 am

TigerDuck wrote:
Clear of any notions.


Apparently that doesn't include silly ranking . r
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:37 am

bubuyaya wrote:See this single letter "I".
I am 'I", and "I" is Me.

Likewise,
all is Me, and I am all.

Any doubts?
Then that's just the made of you.


Greetings bubu,

You are it, but it is not you

Nevertheless the eye with which I see you is the same eye with which you see me
One by one each thing has it, one by one each thing is complete....

:daisy:
Differences are never in opposition.
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:38 am

Kojip wrote:Apparently that doesn't include silly ranking . r


It's a cloud(y) view, which applies to most views, each has its function. (in my view)

Beats splashing in the mud to clear the water though :PP:
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby partofit22 on Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:20 am

fukasetsu wrote:
Kojip wrote:Apparently that doesn't include silly ranking . r


It's a cloud(y) view, which applies to most views, each has its function. (in my view)

Beats splashing in the mud to clear the water though :PP:


It's clear it's cloudy, mostly? :)
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:34 am

partofit22 wrote:It's clear it's cloudy, mostly? :)


Depends on the conditions but mostly, yes, with a chance of hairballs.

ps the weather is not my concern, all this ado about rain or shine :ninja:
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Anders on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:27 am

I like to go with Mazu's line on this. And given how he was perhaps the primary Tathagatagarba exponent in Chan, it seems apt:

"Why do you say "Mind is Buddha?" (essentially eternalism)

"To stop children from crying."

"What about when the crying has stopped?"

"Neither mind nor Buddha."

I can see how a true self explanation has utility. It imbues trust in innate wisdom, it counters views of non-existence. The Hongzhou school formulated an entire model of practise based on it. But at the end of the day, if you have anything left, you've left something undone, whether it is emptiness, true self, etc. And I think it's telling that it's most active proponents in Chan, the Hongzhou teachers, didn't consider it "ultimate" either.

But then, "ultimate" and "provisional" is for debaters. For practitioners, there is only "useful" and "not so useful."
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Ted Biringer on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:46 am

fragrant herbs wrote:I found this commentary on Non Self and True Self online, and it appears to me that Buddha, in his later years talked about our True Self, but I was lead to believe in Zen Buddism that we had no Self, especially not an Eternal Self. I would like to know what the Zen students and teachers here think of these commentaries on the Mahaparinirvana sutra. Does Buddha teach both non-Self and the Self? If so, why are we not taught this? Or are some of us taught this?
Here are the links: http://www.nirvanasutra.net/ and http://www.holisticshop.co.uk/articles/ ... tra-buddha


I don’t understand how one could be led to believe “in Zen Buddhism that we had no Self…” What, or Who, then, did you think the Zen masters were talking about when they referred to “self” – e.g. yourself, ourself, you, your mind, etc. ? For example, try to imagine how the following expressions would appear if there was no self in Zen:

If you want to be no different from the patriarchs and buddhas, then never look for something outside yourselves. The clean pure light in a moment of your mind—that is the Essence-body of the Buddha lodged in you. The undifferentiated light in a moment of your mind—that is the Bliss-body of the Buddha lodged in you. The undiscriminating light in a moment of your mind—that is the Transformation-body of the Buddha lodged in you. These three types of bodies are you, the person who stands before me now listening to this lecture on the Dharma! And simply because you do not rush around seeking anything outside yourselves, you can command these fine faculties.
Lin-chi, The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi, Burton Watson, p.24

The ancients were always mindful of this matter. Whether deep in the mountain valleys or in the bustling villages and towns, they never turned their backs on it for an instant. Whatever scenes or circumstances they encountered, amidst sound and form, in the course of movement and action, they invariably turned around and focused back on their own true selves. The practice of all the adepts since time immemorial who completely penetrated through was none other than this.
Yuanwu, Zen Letters, Thomas Cleary p.60

Once you come to know the inner self, you will find that Kasyapa can wriggle his toes in your shoes.
Keizan, Transmission of Light, Thomas Cleary, p.7

Do you want to get to know the patriarchs and buddhas? They’re none other than you, the people standing in front of me listening to this lecture on the Dharma!
The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi,Burton Watson, p.23

The whole universe, the whole world, is you; do you think there is any other? This is why the Heroic Progress Scripture says, “People lose themselves, pursuing things; if they could turn things around, they would be the same as Buddha.”
Hsueh-feng, The Five Houses of Zen, Thomas Cleary, p.101

The subtle path of buddhas and Zen masters is not an irrational creation of knotty problems, nor is it eccentricity or weirdery. And it is not something that is very lofty and hard to practice: it is just what you presently use all the time in your everyday activities. If we have to give it a name, we might call it the natural real Buddha in you own nature, or the master within your own self.

In everyday terms, at all times and in all places, you see and hear with Shakyamuni Buddha’s eyes and ears, you speak and breathe with Zen founder Bodhidharma’s tongue and nose. In ultimate terms, the individual lives of all the buddhas and Zen masters of the ten directions are all in your grip—whether to gather them together or let them disperse is all up to you.
Wei-tse, Zen Teachings, p.167

If a person wants to find buddha, he must look into his own mind, because it is there, and nowhere else, that buddha exists.
Hakuin, The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Hakuin, p.61

It is tragic. People have been deluded for so long. They do not recognize that their own minds are the true Buddhas. They want to search for the dharma, yet they still look far away for holy ones. They want to search for the Buddha, yet they will not observe their own minds. If they aspire to the path of Buddhahood while obstinately holding to their feeling that the Buddha is outside the mind or the dharma is outside the nature, then, even though they pass through kalpas as numerous as dust motes, burning their bodies, charring their arms, crushing their bones and exposing their marrow, or else write sutras with their own blood, never lying down to sleep, eating only one offering a day at the hour of the Hare [5 to 7 A.M.], or even studying through the entire tripitaka and cultivating all sorts of ascetic practices, it is like trying to make rice by boiling sand—it will only add to their tribulation. If they would only understand their own minds, then, without searching, approaches to dharma as numerous as the sands of the Ganges and uncountable sublime meanings would all be understood. As the World Honored One said, “I see that all sentient beings everywhere are endowed with a tathagata’s wisdom and virtue.” He also said, “All the illusory guises in which sentient beings appear take shape in the sublime mind of the tathagata’s complete enlightenment.” Consequently, you should know that outside this mind there is no Buddhahood which can be attained. All the Buddhas of the past were merely persons who understood their minds. All the sages and saints of the present are likewise merely persons who have cultivated their minds. All future meditators should rely on this dharma as well.
Chinul, Tracing Back the Radiance, p.98-99

The first axiom of Zen is to personally accept the completeness of present actuality. There is no other in the whole universe; it is just you. Who else would you have see? Who would you have hear? All of it is the doing of your mind monarch, fulfilling immutable knowledge. All you lack is personal acceptance of the realization.
Hsuan-sha, The Five Houses of Zen, Thomas Cleary p.127

Clearly, if there is no self, all these guys are out to lunch…

Please Treasure Your Self.
Ted
Do not misunderstand Buddhism by believing the erroneous principle ‘a special tradition outside the scriptures.’ Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo, Bukkyo (trans. Hee-Jin Kim)
Ted Biringer Author The Flatbed Sutra
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby littletsu on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:39 am

Kojip wrote:
TigerDuck wrote:
Clear of any notions.


Apparently that doesn't include silly ranking . r



What would be the opposite of silly ranking? Would need to be just as silly, wouldn't it. Just curious!
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:44 am

Don’t confuse self with SELF

(according to my perception at this moment in time)

m
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Kojip on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:18 am

Michaeljc wrote:Don’t confuse self with SELF

(according to my perception at this moment in time)

m


SELF is self in cosmic drag . Speaking from a double-plus advanced perspective.



Sorry, I'm tired and feeling a bit goofy. :lol2:
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Seeker242 on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:31 pm

Seems to me that depending on which teaching you look at, both non-self and true self are taught. Sometime both at the same time! :lol2:
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fragrant herbs on Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:58 pm

Ted Biringer wrote:
fragrant herbs wrote:I found this commentary on Non Self and True Self online, and it appears to me that Buddha, in his later years talked about our True Self, but I was lead to believe in Zen Buddism that we had no Self, especially not an Eternal Self. I would like to know what the Zen students and teachers here think of these commentaries on the Mahaparinirvana sutra. Does Buddha teach both non-Self and the Self? If so, why are we not taught this? Or are some of us taught this?
Here are the links: http://www.nirvanasutra.net/ and http://www.holisticshop.co.uk/articles/ ... tra-buddha


I don’t understand how one could be led to believe “in Zen Buddhism that we had no Self…” What, or Who, then, did you think the Zen masters were talking about when they referred to “self” – e.g. yourself, ourself, you, your mind, etc. ? For example, try to imagine how the following expressions would appear if there was no self in Zen:

If you want to be no different from the patriarchs and buddhas, then never look for something outside yourselves. The clean pure light in a moment of your mind—that is the Essence-body of the Buddha lodged in you. The undifferentiated light in a moment of your mind—that is the Bliss-body of the Buddha lodged in you. The undiscriminating light in a moment of your mind—that is the Transformation-body of the Buddha lodged in you. These three types of bodies are you, the person who stands before me now listening to this lecture on the Dharma! And simply because you do not rush around seeking anything outside yourselves, you can command these fine faculties.
Lin-chi, The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi, Burton Watson, p.24

The ancients were always mindful of this matter. Whether deep in the mountain valleys or in the bustling villages and towns, they never turned their backs on it for an instant. Whatever scenes or circumstances they encountered, amidst sound and form, in the course of movement and action, they invariably turned around and focused back on their own true selves. The practice of all the adepts since time immemorial who completely penetrated through was none other than this.
Yuanwu, Zen Letters, Thomas Cleary p.60

Once you come to know the inner self, you will find that Kasyapa can wriggle his toes in your shoes.
Keizan, Transmission of Light, Thomas Cleary, p.7

Do you want to get to know the patriarchs and buddhas? They’re none other than you, the people standing in front of me listening to this lecture on the Dharma!
The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi,Burton Watson, p.23

The whole universe, the whole world, is you; do you think there is any other? This is why the Heroic Progress Scripture says, “People lose themselves, pursuing things; if they could turn things around, they would be the same as Buddha.”
Hsueh-feng, The Five Houses of Zen, Thomas Cleary, p.101

The subtle path of buddhas and Zen masters is not an irrational creation of knotty problems, nor is it eccentricity or weirdery. And it is not something that is very lofty and hard to practice: it is just what you presently use all the time in your everyday activities. If we have to give it a name, we might call it the natural real Buddha in you own nature, or the master within your own self.

In everyday terms, at all times and in all places, you see and hear with Shakyamuni Buddha’s eyes and ears, you speak and breathe with Zen founder Bodhidharma’s tongue and nose. In ultimate terms, the individual lives of all the buddhas and Zen masters of the ten directions are all in your grip—whether to gather them together or let them disperse is all up to you.
Wei-tse, Zen Teachings, p.167

If a person wants to find buddha, he must look into his own mind, because it is there, and nowhere else, that buddha exists.
Hakuin, The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Hakuin, p.61

It is tragic. People have been deluded for so long. They do not recognize that their own minds are the true Buddhas. They want to search for the dharma, yet they still look far away for holy ones. They want to search for the Buddha, yet they will not observe their own minds. If they aspire to the path of Buddhahood while obstinately holding to their feeling that the Buddha is outside the mind or the dharma is outside the nature, then, even though they pass through kalpas as numerous as dust motes, burning their bodies, charring their arms, crushing their bones and exposing their marrow, or else write sutras with their own blood, never lying down to sleep, eating only one offering a day at the hour of the Hare [5 to 7 A.M.], or even studying through the entire tripitaka and cultivating all sorts of ascetic practices, it is like trying to make rice by boiling sand—it will only add to their tribulation. If they would only understand their own minds, then, without searching, approaches to dharma as numerous as the sands of the Ganges and uncountable sublime meanings would all be understood. As the World Honored One said, “I see that all sentient beings everywhere are endowed with a tathagata’s wisdom and virtue.” He also said, “All the illusory guises in which sentient beings appear take shape in the sublime mind of the tathagata’s complete enlightenment.” Consequently, you should know that outside this mind there is no Buddhahood which can be attained. All the Buddhas of the past were merely persons who understood their minds. All the sages and saints of the present are likewise merely persons who have cultivated their minds. All future meditators should rely on this dharma as well.
Chinul, Tracing Back the Radiance, p.98-99

The first axiom of Zen is to personally accept the completeness of present actuality. There is no other in the whole universe; it is just you. Who else would you have see? Who would you have hear? All of it is the doing of your mind monarch, fulfilling immutable knowledge. All you lack is personal acceptance of the realization.
Hsuan-sha, The Five Houses of Zen, Thomas Cleary p.127

Clearly, if there is no self, all these guys are out to lunch…

Please Treasure Your Self.
Ted


Thanks for these quotes Ted. These are the teachings that I was never taught. I always believed when Buddha said that this is not self, and this is not self, that there was something else that was self, it just wasn't what the body, etc. was.

Here is its origens from wikipedia:
According to Shimoda Masahiro, the authors of the Maraparinirvana Sutra were leaders and advocates of stupa worship. The term buddhadhatu originally referred to relics. The authors of the Maraparinirvana Sutra used the teachings of the Tathagatagarbha-sutra to reshape the worship of the physical relics of the Buddha into worship of the inner Buddha as a principle of salvation. The term Buddhadhatu came to be used in place of the concept of tathagatagarbha, referring to a concrete entity existing inside the person.[4] Sasaki, in a review of Shimoda, conveys a key premise of Shimoda's work, namely, that the origins of Mahayana Buddhism and the Nirvana Sutra are entwined.[5]

The Tathâgatagarbhasûtra: Theravada Buddhism did not develop a doctrine of Buddha Nature. However, other early schools of Buddhism began to describe the luminous mind is a subtle, basic consciousness present in all sentient beings, or as a potentiality for enlightenment that pervades everywhere.

The Indian version of the Nirvana Sutra underwent a number of stages in its composition. Masahiro Shimoda discerns two versions:[5]
1.a short proto-Nirvana Sutra, which was, he argues, probably not distinctively Mahāyāna, but quasi-Mahāsāṃghika in origin and would date to 100 CE, if not even earlier;
2.an expanded version of this core text was then developed and would have comprised chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 of the Faxian and Tibetan versions, though it is believed that in their present state there is a degree of editorial addition in them from the later phases of development.

The sutra was further developed in China by the Chinese translator Dharmakṣema in the fifth century CE, who added a thirty extra fascicles to the original core text



I am learning here as I look up things.
So this teachings is also part of the Tathâgatagarbhasûtra as shown above. The Tathägatagarbhasütra (TGS) is a relatively short text that represents the
starting point of a number of works in Indian Mahayana Buddhism centering around the idea that all living beings have the buddha-nature.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html

I think of Buddha Nature as the True Self. And who wrote the Tathagatagarbha? Perhaps the Theravadans would say it wasn't Buddha, but then how do we know that Buddha really wrote that that is in the Pali Canon and also how do we know that he wrote anything?

Buddha Nature to me sounds like the Christian saying of "God is within," or the Hindu saying, "I am That." Or how the Zen Buddhist group I was in said that "Mind creates all" or "True Self." Mind, That, God--all the same. But this is not the same God as in the Old Testament.
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Avisitor on Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:26 pm

When first coming upon Buddhism, we encounter the four noble truths.
The practice of Zazen are taught.

As we learn more, the principles of cause and effect are introduced
That the self arises out of the body and mind
The cause and effect are then one and the same .. so, no body and mind then no-self
The concentration improves in Zazen.

It is not that there is no self but that self is an effect and therefore does not exist outside of body and mind
Self awareness drops
True self can then be seen as something which is outside of this cause and effect.
Emptiness/ awareness
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby fragrant herbs on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:53 pm

This following may not have been taught in my sanga, but then I really don't know because I was there getting the basics for 3 1/2 years. But what I just found is that this subject was talked about on Dharma Wheel: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=80

And I just started reading it and sSo far I found this from the Nirvana Sutra that is in the Pali Canon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Sutra
Quotations from the Nirvana Sutra
The Buddha on his eternal and blissful ultimate nature as he stands on the brink of physical death: " ... if you perceive things truly, you will become free from attachment, separated from them, you will indeed be liberated. I have well crossed the watery waste of existence. I abide in bliss, having transcended suffering, therefore I am devoid of unending desire, I have eliminated attachment and gained Liberation [moksha]. There is no old age, sickness or death for me, my life is forever without end. I proceed burning bright like a flame. You must not think that I shall cease to exist. Consider the Tathagata [i.e. Buddha] to be like [Mount] Sumeru: though I shall pass into Nirvana here [i.e. physically die], that supreme bliss is my true nature [dharmata]." (Tibetan version, translated by Stephen Hodge, quoted in Buddha-Self, by Dr. Tony Page, Nirvana Publications, London, 2003, p. 27).

"The Buddha-Tathagatas are not eternally extinguished in Nirvana like the heat of an iron ball that is quickly extinguished when cast into water. Moreover, it is thus: just as the heat of an iron ball is extinguished when thrown into water, the Tathagata is likewise; when the immeasurable mental afflictions have been extinguished, it is similar to when an iron ball is cast into water - although the heat is extinguished, the substance / nature of the iron remains. In that way, when the Tathagata has completely extinguished the fire of the mental afflictions that have been accumulated over countless aeons, the nature of the diamond Tathagata permanently endures - not transforming and not diminishing." (Fa-xian version, tr. by Stephen Hodge, quoted in Buddha-Self, op.cit., p. 92).

On his teaching of "non-Self" (the "worldly self", which ultimately does not exist eternally, but obscures the True Self) and the tathagata-garbha: "When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech, and they are free from doubts. "When I have taught that the tathagata-garbha is empty, fools meditatively cultivate [the notion] that it is extinction [uccheda], subject to destruction and imperfect. The wise know that it is [actually] unchanging, stable and eternal." " ... just as cow's milk is delicious, so too is the taste of this [Nirvana] Sutra similar to that. Those who abandon the teaching given in this sutra concerning the tathagata-garbha are just like cattle. For example, just as people who intend to commit suicide will cause themselves extreme misery, similarly you should know that those ungrateful people who reject the tathagata-garbha and teach non-Self cause themselves extreme misery." (Tibetan version, tr. by Stephen Hodge, quoted in Buddha-Self, op. cit., p. 108).

In contrast to the illusory, conditioned, worldly self, the Self of the Buddha is real and enduring: "The Tathagata's Body is not causally conditioned. Because it is not causally conditioned, it is said to have the Self; if it has the Self, then it is also Eternal, Blissful and Pure." (Mahaparinirvana Sutra, op.cit., Vol. 7, p.71).

"The Tathagata also teaches, for the sake of all beings, that, truly, there is the Self in all phenomena." (Mahaparinirvana Sutra, op. cit., Vol. 1, p.46).
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Re: True Self, Eternal Self

Postby Chrisd on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:38 pm

FYI

On the self thing, Bernadette Robert's work might interest you. She describes in experiential terms what exactly the "self" is, and how what remains after that dissapears can only be called no-self. She says a trap is with assuming that the self is an illusion and it's all empty, there's just taking that to be a truth, and no recognition that the whole self-mechanism can stop and fall away, revealing the truth beyond self.
Bernadette Roberts wrote: This consists in nothing other than the absence of the entire self experience- that is, the whole dimension of knowing, feeling and experiencing.

Some "trap" Buddhists appear to get stuck in.
Bernadette Roberts wrote: From both my reading and discussion with others, however, it seems the Buddhists do not believe "no-self" means the falling away or permanent cessation of the five Skandhas. Rather, the general belief is that the Skandhas are only transformed or perfected, that only their defilements are eventually overcome or discovered empty of a self.
As I see it, then, in Buddhist's terms, the true articulation of the no-self event would be NO-five Skandhas.


Bernadette Roberts wrote:Self is not our true life or our real nature; it is but a temporary mechanism, useful for a particular way of knowing.


Book: http://www.amazon.com/What-Is-Self-Spir ... te+roberts

Hope that opens something up for you, if it doesn't then no problem.

I won't say any more about it, because it's not alive. Like Richard points out it can become poison. Let's move forward in our own practices and forget about no-self and self?
Last edited by Chrisd on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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