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Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bhumi"

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Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bhumi"

Postby Enochian on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:08 pm

Zen gets picked apart by Loppon Namdrol

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5102
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Re: ***ZEN MASTERS, AT BEST, CAN ONLY AWAKEN TO FIRST BHUMI*

Postby klqv on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:23 pm

i always used to assume this was the case [at an absolute best]- until reading about the recent changes in korean buddhism and the sudden sudden paradigm thingy - which is said to reach wondrous enlightenment.
as anything more sounds more esoteric than anything.
thanks for the post :)

so i mean, the whole mahayana thing might be said to be about how buddhahood is not beyond anyone now.
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Re: ***ZEN MASTERS, AT BEST, CAN ONLY AWAKEN TO FIRST BHUMI*

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:25 pm

i can't speak to sudden and gradual, bhumi, etc. I'm not a scholar... but here's what I recently heard in a Tibetan mahayana teaching on the Diamond Sutra:

Bodhisattvas are recognized as wanting the well-being of all, dedicate their practice/lives. They are considered saints, but not yet Buddhas.

Bodhicitta was broader, once who sees and is Buddha.

that's the way I understood it.
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Re: ***ZEN MASTERS, AT BEST, CAN ONLY AWAKEN TO FIRST BHUMI*

Postby Carol on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:31 pm

Enochian wrote:Zen gets picked apart by Loppon Namdrol

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5102


And Namdrol gets picked apart by Astus. :lol2:

For those who want to play "my school is better than your school" it's very entertaining.
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Re: ***ZEN MASTERS, AT BEST, CAN ONLY AWAKEN TO FIRST BHUMI*

Postby klqv on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:37 pm

having scanned some of that thread, i don't know that zomgmi was so alone in his ideas [that full buddhahood is beyond us].

shengyen says in orthodox chinese buddhism that the most anyone can hope for [the historical masters he means] is cultivating after the ten faiths. this is absolutely in line with zongmi - but not korean i mean - who were heavily influenced by him.
zongmi does survey the different chan houses of his day - like hongchou... he says that they teach sudden sudden awakening - but at least generally speaking, for him this means the abodes - of the highest doctrine.


anyway i am not 100% sure that the hongchou did not [according to zongmi] teach that we could reach complete buddhahood in this life but i definitely suggest so...
who knows??
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby PeterB on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:15 pm

Its just Namdrol doing what Namdrol always does. :lol2:
The interesting thing is of course Namdrol is no longer the big cheese as he was on E Sangha,
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Nonin on Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:29 am

There are fools everywhere. No one has to believe them.

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby klqv on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:41 am

i believe him - that it's unreasonable to suppose there are 100s or 1000s of buddhas running around. what great times would we live in - all those people with perfect conduct and divine powers!
maybe i have had enough with zen - it seems a little brash or authoritarian - depending on how you look at it [e.g. if you don't assume the truth of mind to mind transmission, then the latter].


maybe...
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby 1handclapping on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:51 am

PeterB wrote:Its just Namdrol doing what Namdrol always does. :lol2:
The interesting thing is of course Namdrol is no longer the big cheese as he was on E Sangha,
Have you spent much time on Dharmawheel? He runs that place as if he were the big cheese; his behavior stifles discussion. And he has some very unusual takes on Buddhist teachings, that make no sense. Fortunately, I missed the whole e-sangha imbroglio, but ... how did this guy get the idea he's an authority? (Sorry, I'm fairly new to the forum scene, and I've been a bit dismayed with and puzzled by what I've observed in some of my browsing.)
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby PeterB on Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:38 am

I stopped dropping in to Dharma Wheel ( as opposed to Dhamma Wheel ) when Namdrol and his gang showed up. But as any old E Sangha hand will confirm, his role on Dharma Wheel is merely arrogant and dismissive of all views but his own...which is bad enough. But on E Sangha he would simply suspend, or even ban, everyone who disagreed with his views. And as he changed his views on a regular basis it was a bit like log rolling... :lol2:
Many of us on this forum were suspended or banned by him... :)
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby So-on Mann on Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:16 am

Namdrol swore he had no beef with Zen, that he was fair at E-Sangha. here he shows his true colors. I appreciate his logic, at least he has thought his prejudice through. Astus has done a great job of countering... at least in the first pages. (I lost interest.) :bored:
Facing a precious mirror, form and reflection behold each other. You are not it, but in truth it is you.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby PeterB on Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:55 am

As I said to David himself, Its fortunate that the real big cheese, the head honcho, the big kahuna, on Dharma Wheel is David Snyder.
Otherwise dear Malcolm would have suspended HIM... and HE is the owner... :lol2:
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Enochian on Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm

I think it is key to understand that Vajrayana was actually practiced for hundreds of years in India, especially at the great Indian monasteries such as Nalanda and Vikramaśīla.

Vajrayana is merely late phase Mahayana, as noted by Mathew Kapstein.

Therefore scholars talk about an Indo-Tibetan tradition.

Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby PeterB on Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:11 pm

Enochian wrote:I think it is key to understand that Vajrayana was actually practiced for hundreds of years in India, especially at the great Indian monasteries such as Nalanda and Vikramaśīla.

Vajrayana is merely late phase Mahayana, as noted by Mathew Kapstein.

Therefore scholars talk about an Indo-Tibetan tradition.

Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.


Even if that is true, and that is highly debatable, the Vajrayana is not the platform for a critique of Buddhism that has its origins in China and Japan.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Nonin on Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:49 pm

Enochian said:
Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.


Bullshit. All Buddhist schools, Theravada, Zen, Tibetan, Pure Land, etc., etc. are the direct heirs of Buddhism in India. To think otherwise, that one's own school is THE ONE, is only arrogance stemming from superiority delusions.

Enochian, you are verging on sect-bashing here, which is a violation of our TOS. Watch it.

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby 1handclapping on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:00 pm

I don't mean to harp on this, I'm trying to understand what's going on at Dharmawheel. Why is someone so domineering, rude, and as often as not incorrect in his understanding of Buddhism allowed free reign? Why do the moderators, owner, and admins, not to mention the other members, allow this?
Last edited by 1handclapping on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby PeterB on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:07 pm

Good questions....but questions probably more suitably addressed to those mods, owner, and admin. Who have no connection to THIS forum beyond one or two being members.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Carol on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:57 pm

Moderator's Note:

We do not permit sect bashing on this forum. Please review the Terms of Service.

Tibetan Buddhists are not permitted to bash Zen, Theravada, or other Buddhist traditions here at ZFI. Likewise, Zen Buddhists are not permitted to bash Tibetan, Theravada, or other Buddhist traditions here. It is permissible to compare and contrast ... but watch the line and do not disparage any Buddhist traditions here.

Some sect-bashing posts have already been removed by the moderators. Please do not post any more of them.

Also, discussion of specific controversial persons over at Dharmawheel and formerly on E-Sangha is, well, bad manners is I guess the best way to put it. He's not here to defend himself. And if he were, he would probably violate our terms of service too many times and be banned.

I strongly suggest that those who want to debate Namdrol do it over at Dharmawheel and not here!
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Enochian on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:01 pm

PeterB wrote:Even if that is true, and that is highly debatable



Not debatable.

Read David Gray's "Cakrasamvara Tantra" or Ronald Davidson's "Indian Esoteric Buddhism"



1handclapping wrote:Tibetan Buddhism is the direct heir of a Buddhism in India that was heavily influenced by Hindu tantra



Actually if you read "The Tantric Body" by Gavin Flood, you will understand that tantricism was a unique movement that spanned Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Jainism, Buddhism and Saura.


Nonin wrote:Enochian, you are verging on sect-bashing here, which is a violation of our TOS. Watch it.

Nonin



What you call sect bashing, I call history. Why do academics talk of the Indo-Tibetan tradition? Please read the books I referenced above.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby klqv on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:12 pm

Enochian wrote:I think it is key to understand that Vajrayana was actually practiced for hundreds of years in India, especially at the great Indian monasteries such as Nalanda and Vikramaśīla.

Vajrayana is merely late phase Mahayana, as noted by Mathew Kapstein.

Therefore scholars talk about an Indo-Tibetan tradition.

Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.

ALL buddhism in india? ONLY direct heir? doesn't quite make sense that idea... zen consistently teaches transmission.
and even if transmission proper from india is a fabrication: the other buddhist sects exist and are the heirs of indian practices etc.. what scholar would say ALL and ONLY :blah: :blah: ?
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