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Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bhumi"

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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Enochian on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:23 pm

klqv wrote:ALL buddhism in india? ONLY direct heir? doesn't quite make sense that idea... zen consistently teaches transmission.
and even if transmission proper from india is a fabrication: the other buddhist sects exist and are the heirs of indian practices etc.. what scholar would say ALL and ONLY :blah: :blah: ?




Professor Paul Williams certainly talks about "East Asian Buddhism" almost like a different species.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:38 pm

Nonin wrote:Bullshit.


Hear hear
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:41 pm

Enochian wrote:Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.


History has no validity outside of a languistical system based on memory.
And memory has no validity in actuality.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby christopher::: on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:45 pm

Enochian wrote:
PeterB wrote:Even if that is true, and that is highly debatable



Not debatable.

Read David Gray's "Cakrasamvara Tantra"....
Ronald Davidson's "Indian Esoteric Buddhism"...

~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually if you read "The Tantric Body" by Gavin Flood...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Professor Paul Williams certainly talks about "East Asian Buddhism" almost like a different species...



Every theory and idea put forth in academia is debatable, that's how fields change and develop. It's incredibly rare to have a single view existing on something. Especially true with fields like history, where so much is unknown and new data emerges over time...
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Hoja on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Seems that Namtroll is attaking Zen again. Don't he ever get tired of that?
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:57 pm

christopher::: wrote: Especially true with fields like history, where so much is unknown and new data emerges over time...


Those who still believe that they are born in the world and discuss history as some actual event have no idea what it is all about, Buddhist or not, it is kind of sad to watch. Opinions and all do not matter [for its all the same thing in a field of so called contradiction] but the identity mistake of themselves and the world on which it is based is sad. All these projections and fighting and defending of a system which is but a mere fantasy they take for real, ah what can I say? If one thinks that there's a shared history of humans, that's the big illusion of the creative mind. The idea that millions of people withness the same indicates to them that there history is something real and actual and that they are a part of it.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:59 pm

Hoja wrote:Seems that Namtroll is attaking Zen again. Don't he ever get tired of that?


The attack has only validity in his own mind, and all are just additions to perception.
One only gets tired if no one grasps or turn away, as long as there's fuel there's fire.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby christopher::: on Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:03 pm

Indeed, this is what N loves. :)

Enochian wrote:
Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.


Enochian,

I just looked very quickly at a review of one of those books you referenced. I think you might be able to make an argument that "Tibetan Tantric Buddhism is THE direct heir of Tantric Hinduism in India."

But your initial statement just makes no sense, put another way, it's non-sense.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:06 pm

Anyway, there wasn't a reason for anyone to respond to the OP topic.
Let it die.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Enochian on Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:18 pm

christopher::: wrote:I just looked very quickly at a review of one of those books you referenced. I think you might be able to make an argument that "Tibetan Tantric Buddhism is THE direct heir of Tantric Hinduism in India."



You are partially right.

Some of the mother tantras are intertextual with Shaiva tantras.

But just because some late tantras are intertextual, it doesn't mean that Vajrayana is the heir of tantric Hinduism.

As Matthew Kapstein has argued:
"[T]he practice of "incantation and ritual," directed to both ultimate and mundane ends, had become normal Mahayana practice, and not merely a popular cult shunned by the learned clergy, prior to the sixth century, and probably as early as the third. Over the course of the centuries the volume of ritual lore incorporated into the Mahayana in this fashion increased without any but general doctrinal restriction....It was only after this corpus has grown sufficiently massive to take on a life of its own however, that conditions came to favor the emergence of the mantrayana and later Vajrayana as distinct ways of Buddhist practice....[T]his development occurred within a century or two following Bhavaviveka's day, and perhaps had begun already during his lifetime. Once it took place, it became possible to attempt an ex post facto classification of the whole mass of mantric lore that had accumulated during the preceding centuries. Thus, the so-called "outer tantras" had been part and parcel of Mahayana practice long before anyone ever conceived of them as a class apart."


P.S. Keep in mind that except for the Vedas and some early Upanishads, every aspect of Hinduism is ripped off of Buddhism.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby 1handclapping on Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:46 pm

Enochian wrote:
christopher::: wrote:I just looked very quickly at a review of one of those books you referenced. I think you might be able to make an argument that "Tibetan Tantric Buddhism is THE direct heir of Tantric Hinduism in India."


P.S. Keep in mind that except for the Vedas and some early Upanishads, every aspect of Hinduism is ripped off of Buddhism.

Christopher, I agree with this, having read the Donaldson book. He also states that the guru cult, which we find so problematic here in the West, use of spells (which evolved into mantras) and other elements were adopted by the Buddhism of the day. Furthermore, the founder of TB, Padmasambhava, came from Oddiyana, a region where many tantric texts originated, and where tantra was very popular in Padmasambhava's time. A study of his life and practice in Tibet makes your conclusion inevitable.

Enochian, this may not be the place to debate this, but the chicken-and-egg question of which came first, and which borrowed from which, Hinduism or Buddhism, is still controversial among scholars. However, N.N. Bhattacharrya, in his "HIstory of the Tantric Religion" makes it clear that the roots of tantra are very ancient in India, long predating Buddhism.
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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Jok_Hae on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:06 pm

Enochian wrote:I think it is key to understand that Vajrayana was actually practiced for hundreds of years in India, especially at the great Indian monasteries such as Nalanda and Vikramaśīla.

Vajrayana is merely late phase Mahayana, as noted by Mathew Kapstein.

Therefore scholars talk about an Indo-Tibetan tradition.

Bottom line, Tibetan Buddhism is THE direct heir of Buddhism in India.


ahh, the wolf takes off the sheeps clothing! :lol2:

put it down, my friend. It's all just views. Namdrol's view is one of many. It is an old and tired one. If you think this is the one TRUTH, practice away. But keep it to yourself. :peace:

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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Jok_Hae on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:09 pm

Hoja wrote:Seems that Namtroll is attaking Zen again. Don't he ever get tired of that?


attacking Zen is a very popular sport!
You make, you get

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Re: Tibet Buddhist says Zen Masters only awaken to "first bh

Postby Carol on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:16 pm

Moderator's Note: This topic is being locked. It has devolved to sect bashing -- both bashing Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. Go on over to Dharmawheel if you want to continue this.
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