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Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby [james] on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:06 am

Rocket wrote:
Michaeljc wrote: Samadhi no more important than the morning pee.

m


Too much head trip. Pure experience free is mental bs is well worth experiencing and discussing. Not to mention permanent healing of the mind that is really the point.

It is true, not too many have the time and dedication, freedom from big obstacles. In my view those mental obstacles, anger, frustration, they are the big obstacles. When those are down to a dull roar, the actual practice can bring very rapid results.

No sour grapes now…. very unzen….


Whether stating the mind (what is shimmering in your skull and my skull) or the Mind (as in the eternal infinite) how can either be in need of healing? Does one not suggest the other? Pure experience free of bullshit is no purer than than the experience of bullshit, both well worth experiencing if not necessarily discussing. The bull shit mind is the BullShitMind. Is healing even possible?
:blush: Gee, I don't know
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby klqv on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:09 am

Careful who you consider teacher….
this is not what is taught in scripture... we are told to embrace a teacher as authentic for ages before giving up on them.
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:52 am

klqv wrote:
Careful who you consider teacher….
this is not what is taught in scripture... we are told to embrace a teacher as authentic for ages before giving up on them.


Some scripture, yes. But it is not hard to find scripture that cautions us about false teachers. Dogen tells us that identifying an advanced authentic teacher is very difficult. Throughout the middle ages Monks commonly trudged around for years trying out numbers of teachers.

m
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby klqv on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:54 am

Michaeljc wrote:
klqv wrote:
Careful who you consider teacher….
this is not what is taught in scripture... we are told to embrace a teacher as authentic for ages before giving up on them.


Some scripture, yes. But it is not hard to find scripture that cautions us about false teachers. Dogen tells us that identifying an advanced authentic teacher is very difficult. Throughout the middle ages Monks commonly trudged around for years trying out numbers of teachers.

m

that does not contradict what i said though.
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:03 am

Authentic being the key word.

Actually, as I believe that we remain essentially alone, most teachers can do no harm. How do we judge what is positive or negative anyway?
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby klqv on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:07 am

Michaeljc wrote:Authentic being the key word.

Actually, as I believe that we remain essentially alone, most teachers can do no harm. How do we judge what is positive or negative anyway?

i've already suggested that the answer is - practicing under them for years!
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Seeker242 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:53 pm

Rocket wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:Well ok, so what? Big deal. :lol2:



:Namaste:


The point is, it is available, even for ordinary folks who simply work at it can experience the mental healing … its not a one off deal. It's permanent. I'm not kidding.

One more person walking around with a mind relatively free of …. agitation, instability, angst, anger , what have you.

It is a lot of work, dedication.

If you guys are so sour on it, perhaps you should just sit back and let anyone who has experience or some interest , instead of trying to desparage something you seem inexperienced in ….

That would be more zen.


It's really not a matter of inexperience, it more a matter of experience. The experience in seeing that these "special samadhi states" are empty of any real substance. The zen way is the way of "ordinary mind", not some "special state" of mind. It's not a matter of "being sour on it", it's s a matter of seeing impermanence and emptiness of "special samadhi states", etc. It's a matter of seeing that they come and go and seeing that they are not worth holding onto, because holding onto anything is not zen. The true zen way is to not hold onto anything, which of course includes "good feeling samadhi".

It's a lot of work and dedication, for what? A special state of mind? Why go looking for a special state of mind when zen is the way of ordinary everyday mind?

even for ordinary folks who simply work at it can experience the mental healing … its not a one off deal. It's permanent. I'm not kidding.


No one is saying that zazen is not mentally healing. It obviously is!

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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Rocket on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:08 pm

[quote="Seeker242"]

Clearly not everyone is built for it …. until they get beyond obstacle. It can be quite a challenge.
Last edited by Rocket on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby klqv on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:21 pm

Rocket wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:
Clearly not everyone is built for it.

that is not what dogen says.

also your idea that not everyone can liberate themselves has been completely / roundly refuted by the lotus sutra.

iccahntikas are IMO a bogeyman and not relevant to anyone's practice, if not now, then not ever.
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Rocket on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:35 pm

klqv wrote:
Rocket wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:
Clearly not everyone is built for it.

that is not what dogen says.

also your idea that not everyone can liberate themselves has been completely / roundly refuted by the lotus sutra.

iccahntikas are IMO a bogeyman and not relevant to anyone's practice, if not now, then not ever.


Again, we see that, its only that the time has not come yet for everyone.

If not yet , perhaps later

My original intent was discussion of experience of success, not frustrated "not yet" …. anger, negation, etc.

This could be an opportunity to identify obstacles to success.

good luck with that …
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby klqv on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:44 pm

Rocket wrote:
klqv wrote:
Rocket wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:
Clearly not everyone is built for it.

that is not what dogen says.

also your idea that not everyone can liberate themselves has been completely / roundly refuted by the lotus sutra.

iccahntikas are IMO a bogeyman and not relevant to anyone's practice, if not now, then not ever.


Again, we see that, its only that the time has not come yet for everyone.

If not yet , perhaps later

My original intent was discussion of experience of success, not frustrated "not yet" …. anger, negation, etc.

This could be an opportunity to identify obstacles to success.

good luck with that …

you are saying that i was angry?

i wasn't being angry.

and you shouldn't conclude that people are just cos they don't share your own ideas - it's bad karma - no doubt.


edit i was - i admit, feeling a bit frustrated with myself, for caring that you thought zazen or zen or samadhi was for a select / elite few. i hold you yourself no grudge tho :hugs: :hugs:
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby macdougdoug on Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:16 pm

Depending on definition of success - one obstacle caused by samadhi might be pride - although a sense of pride is of course also an asset.
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Seeker242 on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:16 am

Rocket wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:
Clearly not everyone is built for it …. until they get beyond obstacle. It can be quite a challenge.


Sorry, I'm not following. What is a challenge? Getting a special samadhi state or letting go of special samadhi state? Or something else?

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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Michaeljc on Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:24 am

Ha! - another one of these. :blush:

How should one respond?
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby unsui on Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:11 am

Hi all! This discussion has been moving in a less friendly, less open direction. In our TOS, you are requested to
"Keep it friendly. We invite your practice of Right Speech by meeting other members with openness, compassion and respect. ZFI encourages friendly discussion and discourages hostile debates. Also keep in mind that we represent a broad spectrum of approaches to Zen Buddhism and different levels of experience and practice. Trolling, ad hominem and personal attacks or disparagement of others' intelligence, knowledge, practice, maturity, mental health, integrity or intentions are not permitted and will be removed by the moderators. Repeated transgressions may result in suspension or termination of posting privileges."


Meido has contributed in another thread on samadhi, beginning here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=7589#p156437
There are relevant perspectives offered in that discussion that might be included in this one!
May we extend This Mind over the whole universe so that we and all beings together may attain maturity in Buddha's wisdom
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Rocket on Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:29 pm

Thus-gone wrote:What you are talking about, Rocket, is "mundane samadhi" - the fruition of shamatha practice. Relative to other experiences in ordinary life, it does not seem mundane at all. But it is still a samsaric state, containing within it the seeds of vexation. The support for this samadhi - in other words, the object of concentration - is something like the breath, a candle flame, or a mental image.

The support for supramundane samadhi is vidyā (recognition of true nature).


…. what I am talking about Mr. or Mrs. Thus -gone is my experience. Not some impressive sounding intellectual thing I read and memorized from a book somewhere, not that written teachings lack value …. they do deliver the full monte, become vastly more interesting and understandable, if and only if direct experience illuminates the written word ie they are not simply memorized or cut and pasted from a book.

That has been the starting point for this discussion.

the reason I initiated the discussion is its nearly universally what I've seen on all buddhist forums I"ve visited prior to this one.

I'm convinced many more folks interested in deeper meditative states would actually be having them if there was a tradition, or a routine, of removing the particularly virulent obstacles, mental agitation and instability, that are almost universal in us westerners, before launching into investing time and energy in practice.

IF we are bedeviled by too much mental instabilility and agitation we can't drop down into the deeper states. Its a mundane psychological fact.

WE come by these obstacles honestly and we can remove them and move into deeper states almost immediatedly with great training and sincere effort.
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:31 pm

Rocket,

Those words and that concern come from a deep compassion, it seems to me, in reading your post.

In particular, I relate strongly with your:

"IF we are bedeviled by too much mental instabilility and agitation we can't drop down into the deeper states".

This is why I advocate physical methods in Chan and Zen practice, as well as the essential Zazen, and why I have continued to teach them since 1980. When the body is relaxed and healthy, vexations become fewer, and it's more common that we can touch and rest in our true nature.

Samadhi can be the natural result of good and effective practice, and sinking. Then it can be a practice itself. But as I have written previously in this thread, samadhi is not yet awakening. Awakening (in many cases) occurs when samadhi breaks up suddenly.

"The practitioner wakes up when samadhi breaks up".

Maybe material for a song lyric, there. Then again, an actual song tells us that "Breaking up is hard to do". ;-)

I feel -- and have seen -- that these developments take a good deal of practice, in good conditions, usually with a good teacher, and a strong sangha. It's mostly physical practice. Zazen, too, is admittedly PHYSICAL.

The

"...tradition" and "routine of removing the particularly virulent obstacles, mental agitation and instability, that are almost universal in us westerners...",

is/are THERE in all lineages of practice. I think we only need to be lucky to find a teacher and sangha in a lineage that does not put us off too much at first, and then to become more and more comfortable and "familial" with them as we pare off a series of our cares and ailments, through the practice(s) transmitted there.

If you are familiar with Chan and Zen teaching, then you may know that there are many practices, and not just zazen.

I know nothing of Tibetan practice by experience, but I suspect that there may be many practices there, too, besides meditation, compassionately and wisely brought in, ...of natural necessity.

I think all of us in the West would like to give practice "here" a push. We have to start, I think, by learning from the best we can find, ourselves, and putting it into practice. Later, natural Wisdom and Compassion will help us give a push where, when, and how it's needed, -- even if not Institutionally -- then, one warm heart at a time, ...as it's always been done.

So I hope!

--Joe

Rocket wrote:
I'm convinced many more folks interested in deeper meditative states would actually be having them if there was a tradition, or a routine, of removing the particularly virulent obstacles, mental agitation and instability, that are almost universal in us westerners, before launching into investing time and energy in practice.

IF we are bedeviled by too much mental instabilility and agitation we can't drop down into the deeper states. Its a mundane psychological fact.

WE come by these obstacles honestly and we can remove them and move into deeper states almost immediatedly with great training and sincere effort.
"The abundance of Nature is not a matter of its 'providing' ". -- William James, c. 1901.

"Least said is soonest disavowed". -- Ambrose Bierce (c. 1900)

"Politeness: noun. The most acceptable hypocrisy." -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby klqv on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:11 pm

WE come by these obstacles honestly and we can remove them and move into deeper states almost immediatedly with great training and sincere effort.


and that is your experience - you were being insincere and not training for long, and then you realized and then could attain samadhi?

and i didn't mean to say you were accusing me of being poisonous before, but i am intrigued if you were :) :) ?
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Rocket on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:50 pm

Hi Joe / desert wood worker…..
My zen knowledge is scant though had instictual affinity since youth, so I cannot respond in an informed way to specifics of your post. I get your authenticity though. Loud and clear.

A review of this thread shows you (aside from meido and unsui) as the only people not trying to attack, belittle, use eschatological references towad the fruits of authentic practice. Holy cow.

My "preliminary practice": clean up my inner experience ... personal obstacles to that quintessential equanimity fruitful Buddhist practice is known for …. I now firmly beleive: if we (most westerners) incorporate "preliminary practices" to quiet the high level of anger, frustration, agitation, mental instablilty, to prepare for Buddhist practice, we could reap equanimity plus, much much quicker. The present picture is strong evidence in favor of that notion.

My evidnce : meditation became the capstone to 35 years of work. It won't take others that long, now we have a "how to " techniques. Delivery of fruits beyond anything I was even capable of imagining or hoping for. However its too subtle a process to utilize to quiet the gross negativity and instability …. we would need 5 centuries to get anywhere.

None of that 4 decades of work on my part was meditation ... until 8 years ago. I was active in psychotherapy lke processes. I was boweled over when great meditation training immediately sent me into a deep trance state: some Samadhi the first weekend I got expert training. Then within two years sincere Samatha practice brought a virtually total healing of the mind , and far more profoundly than I was even capable of hoping or dreaming of in all the years I worked at it… by other means.

And it is so incredibly simple. Amazing. The utter simplicity of relaxation and stillness is inversely proportional to the vastly profound fruits of samatha practice.

These comments, in fact the initiation of this thread, was intended to advocate for such preliminary practices to make the subtlety of authentic practice accessible, since it clearly is not in many or most cases. So many of us show up for meditaion training and walk away viewing it as a bit of a scam. It seemed that way to me at first … until I found a teacher who had pround experience and top notch training ... and I personally was ready.

I pretty much knew how this thread was going to end up: infested with invective and anger from the start. It happens a lot but the conversation is worth having.

Best….
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Re: Samadhi: your experience, not the head trip...

Postby Chrisd on Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:26 pm

You are praising, advocating preliminary meditation exercise to stabilize the mind if I understand correctly. That's a good point, I think. People have the tendency to go "all is zen, zen is all" so no need to sit in meditation.

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