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Re: Afterlife

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Re: Afterlife

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:46 pm

Let's give "afterlife" -- and other things that may be real but which yet may escape our current notice -- every opportunity to assert themselves in all their richness, so that we may appreciate them.

On the question of "afterlife", though, ...let's not hold our breath! :lol2: ;) :tongueincheek: :)X :heya: :p:

But we remain open, anyway.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby Caodemarte on Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:27 pm

Just a reminder that the Buddha and Buddhism did not teach that anyone is reborn as there is no self, no one to be reborn.

I have never met or heard of any Zen teacher who cared what I believed or what great ideas I had. Their questions were far more immediate.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Just a reminder that the Buddha and Buddhism did not teach that anyone is reborn as there is no self, no one to be reborn.

I have never met or heard of any Zen teacher who cared what I believed or what great ideas I had. Their questions were far more immediate.


Right but we imagine a self...which is desire and aversion which is what binds one to the wheel of life and dearh (thus I have heared)

Thats true mac but this is the internet, most stuff are superfluous ingredients to the soup, which is no critique at all. ppl wonder about their existence which results in philosophical debates

ps renewed becoming and karma are easily proofed with experience in this life, which is very useful to see through ones own erroneous conceptions. Im a new person (self-image/grasping) everyday, the person changes several times a day, as changeful as the weather

A "self" is the most fragile thing there is the mind is constantly cleverly refreshing and redisigning its own inevitable death just to prolong its existence, it's all based on fear (desire) saying there is no self doesnt mean a thing, usually its a construct of mind to affirm a self in its very negation

This is "birth" when the "mind" (ignorance) comes into being the rest of the chain follows. all the teachings can be tested in our very daily lifes by simply observing the workings of "mind" whether this is so after the physical body has lost its fuel is of no importance, the teachings are "now" When dead there are no sutras, it is designed for right now. Ironically ppl miss what "birth" means in our daily lives its not something which happened 40 (in my case) years ago. After and before are fantasies the conditioned mind adds to perception, which are effluents of "birth" it happens every second when paying attention (at least for monkeys) the tibetian book of the dead is also a good example, its teachings are about now.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:24 pm

Wordsworth was thinking along a little different lines.

I'm glad he was. Glad he did it.

--Joe

Wordsworth_Ode_Intimations_of_Immortality_1815.jpg
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:49 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wordsworth_Ode_Intimations_of_Immortality_1815.jpg


Good observation, since one cannot think about what one has never experienced that shows that all thoughts are echos of events already seen, heared, experienced.
Like nightly dreams are echos of daily activity when awake thoughts are dreams too. The reason some ppl cannot "enter" a thoughtless state for hours (or even a minute) is because they have not observed what thoights are, its never anything new or in the "now" thoughts about the future are echos of already experienced things which are past. So its actually due to confusement that one thinks/imagines what comes after, since the very thought "after" could not be thought if never experienced anything before. Identifying the "present" with the past and projecting it into the "future" is but a dream an echo, and its through that proces that the idea of a self or a "person" comes into being and its so called inevitable "death" or "rebirth". In really being "present" there is no thought arising for it is simply unthinkable, time is of "mind" only, which is an echo of "birth" identification.

So indeed it's an intimitation, or an echo, it's baby stuff, sperm stuff :lol2: Its like the odour coming from pissing I smell in the morning, who would identify with that? It's all piss and excriment of past food. One cannot let go of what one does not understand, observing is everything in complete detachment from what is perceived.

Thoughts are handy things as a function in our service, but attachment to it is what is the error, there is no error in anything other then our grasping at them. and grasping is (re)birth

In a moment thoughts may arise as a memory of me making this post, but could I have thought it without it ever being made? No but that is exactly what we think the future is, it are but echos of the known, and the known cannot know ahead of itself. There is no past present or future, it exists as a notion only. And such we find ourselfs in a conceptual universe chasing our own tail, what a comedy.
thoughts arise due to conditions and are momentary, conditions follow conditions and we create the illusion of moment to moment existence, in the main brain. thinking about "after" or future is ridiculous and "mysteriously" we reincarnate from the future into the present, all of the time we just do not notice. Everything happens in a single point, our brains only filter out the "emptiness" of it all and condense it into how its designed to be perceived. as in past present and future, but theres more then what the brain literally makes of it.I smell the coffee already because I just made some, lovely.
ps none of the above is true, just some relative observations.
Back to being dead.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:11 am

Only one Zen teacher has specifically addressed this question in my presence. The elderly, very orthodox (at least in terms of doctrine) Japanese Roshi said that it can be seen like this. Every micro-micro- millisecond you die (the skandhas dissovle of break apart) and are reborn (skandhas assemble) as a separate person, die, are reborn etc. The micro-micro-millisecond period is just an analogy to improve understanding. You could also say instantaneously. In fact it is not just "you" that this is happening to, but the whole universe.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:31 am

Caodemarte wrote:You could also say instantaneously. In fact it is not just "you" that this is happening to, but the whole universe.


And it happens in the past, present and future simultaniously.
Only as an apparent "birth" in relativity from our mothers womb we are not "designed" to know this, yet the Universe discovers itself as "timeless being" nevertheless in which there is no becoming but everything IS. things appear and disappear there is no error in that, only in mistaking appearances for source all this dissonance about identities and fear of death (which is merely fear from birth echo'd or mirrorized) come into play. But its not strange since we're "designed" software wise to perceive seperation and from babies on do all other meat jackets tell you who and what you are, and thus we get stuck in a loophole of the known, which is an excrament from "birth-consciousness" Why fret, we are, as the Unknown discovering itself, and the known will disappear, "forever"
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Re: Afterlife

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:53 am

Yes, Cao.,

Caodemarte wrote:Only one Zen teacher has specifically addressed this question in my presence. The elderly, very orthodox (at least in terms of doctrine) Japanese Roshi said that it can be seen like this. Every micro-micro- millisecond you die (the skandhas dissovle of break apart) and are reborn (skandhas assemble) as a separate person, die, are reborn etc. The micro-micro-millisecond period is just an analogy to improve understanding. You could also say instantaneously. In fact it is not just "you" that this is happening to, but the whole universe.

Quantum Mechanics -- but I'm not sure -- may include that a quantization of TIME (not the news-magazine) is necessary, too, as well as a quantization of Space, and other parameters (such as Energy, in distinct environments), in order to describe (and calculate) things aright.

If Time is "allowed" by the universe (by Nature...) only to tick-by in certain natural increments, then, indeed, there is a "granularity" of TIME, as well as of other (granular; quantized) parameters (space, energy, etc.). But, I'm not sure about this "TIME" thing!

But, surely, the quantization would be in extremely tiny increments (time "packets"), not sensible by any organism, nor even by advanced instrumentation (except indirectly, or by extension). Wonderful!

Anybody: is Time quantized? (I'll check Wikipedia... ). :lol2:

--Joe
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Re: Afterlife

Postby partofit22 on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:32 am

Caodemarte wrote:Only one Zen teacher has specifically addressed this question in my presence. The elderly, very orthodox (at least in terms of doctrine) Japanese Roshi said that it can be seen like this. Every micro-micro- millisecond you die (the skandhas dissovle of break apart) and are reborn (skandhas assemble) as a separate person, die, are reborn etc. The micro-micro-millisecond period is just an analogy to improve understanding. You could also say instantaneously. In fact it is not just "you" that this is happening to, but the whole universe.


Yay! I'm happy he addressed it in your presence and you addressed it here -- in simple terms, to improve understanding- Yay!
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:07 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Anybody: is Time quantized? (I'll check Wikipedia... ). :lol2:

--Joe


:lol2:

I don't know what quantized means Joe,
But time-space is software allright, have you ever heared the noise of consciousness itself?
It's pretty "loud" and mutable.

I doubt that the laws of nature can be "broken", but humans know very little of nature, and its possibilities/potential.
Not speaking of true nature ofcourse, speaking of consciousness itself, which is nothing seperate from the heart of the "shining"
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Re: Afterlife

Postby Spike on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:45 pm

From the film Little Buddha: the broken cup scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-05I8vXOdXg
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:50 pm

Spike wrote:From the film Little Buddha: the broken cup scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-05I8vXOdXg


Great movie thanks, try that metaphor with a balloon. :daisy:
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Re: Afterlife

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:08 pm

Unfortunately whatever mechanics I end up believing, in the end I don't really know what mind is, or even what is meant by reborn.
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:26 pm

macdougdoug wrote:Unfortunately whatever mechanics I end up believing, in the end I don't really know what mind is, or even what is meant by reborn.


Screenshot_2017-08-25-18-14-59.png


Kiekeboe (peekaboo)
who's looking at who?
or is the inquiry of "who" perhaps depended on something,
and when we recognize on what such an inquiry depends,
the question is no longer relevant?
:daisy:
When you pop a balloon air returns to air perhaps the One is already "empty" so where does the One return?

Perhaps the inquiry of rebirth is a false question, on what does the question depend? The desire to know depends on?

How did space enter the room....hmmm :tongueincheek:
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Re: Afterlife

Postby Jok_Hae on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:01 am

Caodemarte wrote:Only one Zen teacher has specifically addressed this question in my presence. The elderly, very orthodox (at least in terms of doctrine) Japanese Roshi said that it can be seen like this. Every micro-micro- millisecond you die (the skandhas dissovle of break apart) and are reborn (skandhas assemble) as a separate person, die, are reborn etc. The micro-micro-millisecond period is just an analogy to improve understanding. You could also say instantaneously. In fact it is not just "you" that this is happening to, but the whole universe.


Fwiw, I have always preferred the "moment to moment" interpretation of these teachings, as opposed to "lifetime after lifetime".

Thanks for sharing this. :peace:

edit: Of course, originally neither interpretation is correct. We just keep shining the light inward.
You make, you get

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Re: Afterlife

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:01 am

Solitary brightness
Walks alone through the town
At midnight
Step by step in the dark
Beyond insight
Wearing a felt hat with a red feather
Holding opinions great and small
Never believing a word in flight
One bright idea, then another better
All turned to laughter and light
To fly away home on wings of
Living the one life that is theirs
As only they can fly in silence at night
Far beyond ideas of up and down.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:10 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:Solitary brightness
Walks alone through the town
At midnight
Step by step in the dark
Beyond insight
Wearing a felt hat with a red feather
Holding opinions great and small
Never believing a word in flight
One bright idea, then another better
All turned to laughter and light
To fly away home on wings of
Living the one life that is theirs
As only they can fly in silence at night
Far beyond ideas of up and down.


:rbow:
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:32 pm

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Love the night(sky) Joe, it doesn't complain when the stars come out, or when the seagulls mendicate. :)
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Re: Afterlife

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:12 pm

perennial_joke.jpg
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Re: Afterlife

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:41 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
perennial_joke.jpg


“In the third watch of the night
Before the moon appears,
No wonder when we meet
There is no recognition!
Still cherished in my heart
Is the beauty of earlier days.”

~Tozan
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