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Non-Arising

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Non-Arising

Postby maaeso on Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:13 am

I have been really into the type of Zazen taught at Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America.

As I was reading the Heart Sutra and some other Tantra material the term "Non-Arising" kept being referenced.

Please explain this concept as you understand it. :O:
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:55 am

Since you post here I assume you are looking for a mundane, dictionary answer. I believe "non-arising" is usually meant to mean non-caused, beginning-less. Sunyata (emptiness) is unconditioned hence it is false to say that it is caused, has a begininng or end, etc. Since it is unconditioned it is false to say it is not caused, etc. Any position taken is false. Taking no position is not taking a negative position (or nihilism), Since sunyata is exactly appearance or what you see around you, what you see around you is also "non-arising." So as the Heart Sutra which Zen and other Mahayana sects chant says, "... no ignorance, and no ending of ignorance."
"Non-arising" is used as short hand to signify "neither arising or arising."

If you want a non-dictionary answer I assume you will post in Ask a Teacher!
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby TigerDuck on Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:45 am

maaeso wrote:I have been really into the type of Zazen taught at Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America.

As I was reading the Heart Sutra and some other Tantra material the term "Non-Arising" kept being referenced.

Please explain this concept as you understand it. :O:


If you see a mother gives birth to a child, I guess you will say that is arising.

But, what you will think if you see Disneyland's Mini Mouse gives birth. Is this arising?

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:13 am

maaeso wrote:Please explain this concept as you understand it. :O:


Since compounded phenomena are void of own-being or self-nature in reality there is no arising or ceasing,
but since nothing arises there is also nothing which does not arise.

"when mind comes into being, the various conceptions come to be"
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:29 am

TigerDuck wrote:If you see a mother gives birth to a child, I guess you will say that is arising.

But, what you will think if you see Disneyland's Mini Mouse gives birth. Is this arising?


In my view they both appear yet do not arise, in the same way we can say that things appear but not that they are (or are not)
We cannot find any existence or non-existence on phenomena, thus it appears yet in reality never arose.

"Like a dream, like a mirage"
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:23 pm

.
I feel it's akin to Zen Master Bankei's (1622-1693) expounded-principle of ..."The Unborn".

Bankei taught so much on this, that it's not funny. ;)

He describes it from all sorts of angles, and then more angles, like a team of blind men each with a hand on the Elephant. Most compassionate! And he wrote-for and taught-to common people like us, not to spiritual athletes, nor solely monastics.

Maybe you -- or you all -- will find something in Bankei.

best,

--Joe

p.s.: otherwise, non-arising is the condition of being Awake. Nothing moves, including the mind, since there is then no mind which a non-awake person calls "mind": It is gone. True Wisdom and true Compassion, simultaneously, can then freely arise in seamless response to circumstances and events in daily life, spontaneously, just as events occur. That is -- :lol2: -- "they" arise only when nothing else arises. The reason that there is no contradiction, there, is that (true) Wisdom and Compassion are FUNCTIONS, that is, actions; they are not arisings of mental "things". That is, truly: they are verbs, not nouns. rgds, -J.
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 pm

I could not resist Joe

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Re: Non-Arising

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:43 pm

Fantabulous!

I like both kitties, and would like to meet them. Bankei, you know, is not bad, either!

I can recommend scanning and devouring Bankei's record of speeches on The Unborn; I think it's Peter Haskell's book I have (in English).

:Namaste:, --Joe
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:38 pm

We'd be honoured, Joe. :)

I read, I think Norman Waddell's book "Life and Teachings of Zen Master Bankei" (2000)
https://www.amazon.com/Unborn-Teachings ... 943MRCD0T3
But it's been anywhere between 5-10 years since I did, it was love on first "sight" though.

I don't have the book anymore, a copy would be nice, even if I don't read it the cats like to sit on it, so it's a win-win :lol2:

You have this one;
https://www.amazon.com/Bankei-Zen-Trans ... 0802131840

could you say something about the differences in both books or did you not read the Norman Waddel's one?
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby maaeso on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:24 pm

Did any Zen Masters or schools investigate what the Noumenal world is?
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby Caodemarte on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:47 pm

maaeso wrote:Did any Zen Masters or schools investigate what the Noumenal world is?


What do you mean by this question? Could you break it down and define your terms?
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby maaeso on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:35 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
maaeso wrote:Did any Zen Masters or schools investigate what the Noumenal world is?


What do you mean by this question? Could you break it down and define your terms?


Just the standard definition of Noumenal world. The forum is open to address it however individual posters may want to talk about it.
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:31 pm

The Noumenal world is this world, if you see it aright. Through effective practice.

But, then, it is just daily-life, it turns out. Nothing special. Get on with it... .

"May we have the next slide, please?"

Like that.

:Namaste:

--Joe

p.s. Granted, it's wonderful. But wonderful is "nothing special". The fact that there's ANY experience at all, in Emptiness, is, well, miraculous. Much better than "nothing".
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby TigerDuck on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:03 am

I think non-arising is not a concept.

When we see a TV show, actually that show is a non-arising display.

Although we see people on the display, those people are not inside your TV.

The display is empty display.

That is non-arising.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby macdougdoug on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 am

Say you're sitting in Zazen and a tingling feeling appears on your hand, the feeling is noticed as it appears and then dissapears - a bit like quantum occurrences appearing and dissapearing out of Nothing and back into Nothing in a bubble chamber. This would be like Non-arising.

Say you're sitting in Zazen and a tingling feeling appears on your hand, an overwhelming desire to scratch arises, and a great battle rages in the heart and mind between should or shouldn't, until finally one side finally overcomes the other. This would be like arising and manifesting.
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby bokki on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:27 am

non arising?
where did u hear such crap?
who told u such a joke?
point 2 me this
non arisen stuff!!!
u want 2 play with concepts?
b my guest!!
next time u eat or attend a funeral, remember ur question.
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby bokki on Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:00 pm

.
Last edited by bokki on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:15 pm

bokki wrote:some said that u should forget ur knowledge that u do not use opposites..


Right but I need not to be rejected.
All this talk of arising and non-arising is the creativity of mind, and that play is called "the unreal" Yet by neither accepting or rejecting it as "such or not such" and letting it :"play out" is what brings one to the real, and then "returning to the unreal" or mind's movement, it is no longer unreal :daisy:

Forget forgetting

All threads on zfi are play bokki, not just the play thread :lol2:
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:37 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:I read, I think Norman Waddell's book "Life and Teachings of Zen Master Bankei" (2000)
...
could you say something about the differences in both books or did you not read the Norman Waddel's one?

I haven't read the Waddell book, Fuki, just the Haskell and Hakeda, Bankei Zen -- Translations from the Record of Bankei, Grove Press (1984). It's probably enough Bankei for me. Great sermons, teachings, poems, and recorded "doings"!

I don't have the Waddell book, but I DO have a birthday coming up in about a year... . :heya:

--Joe

EDIT: p.s. Here's an indication of the "grandmotherly kindness" of Master Bankei, too, as shown near the end of one of his lengthy but engaging popular sermons on "The Unborn", which he gave daily to farmers near his place who would walk up and come in and listen. At least one such long sermon ends like this:

    "Today's talk was long, and you're probably all worn out, so let's stop here. Everyone take your time leaving, and please come again tomorrow".
-J.
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Re: Non-Arising

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:55 pm

macdougdoug wrote:Say you're sitting in Zazen and a tingling feeling appears on your hand, the feeling is noticed as it appears and then dissapears - a bit like quantum occurrences appearing and dissapearing out of Nothing and back into Nothing in a bubble chamber. This would be like Non-arising.

Say you're sitting in Zazen and a tingling feeling appears on your hand, an overwhelming desire to scratch arises, and a great battle rages in the heart and mind between should or shouldn't, until finally one side finally overcomes the other. This would be like arising and manifesting.


Thanks for the example,
what appears is what appears, the raging battle is a superflous ingredient. For instance I might break a leg and I feel the pain but it doesn't leave a scar "mentally" in that way it's "arising without the mark of arising"
In the same if we dream there's a burglar in the house and you wake up in the morning, you don't go back to the dream trying to get rid of the burglar or alarm the police. The daily dream isn't different from this, just lasts a little bit longer :lol2:

There is scratching and there is not scratching, an itch appears and disappears, there really isn't a need to superimpose a "person or mind" who rages in battle, these are interpretations upon perception, the scratch already happened before we believe ourselfs to have overcome something, or liberated an itch, apart from our imagination ofcourse. Actually, the itch never happened, the same with "birth" and "death" nothing ever did. Eventhough we feel it, there's no need to mark or stamp it with the fantasy of you know who or what. Reminds me of this;

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