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Re: chaos

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:57 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Joe, it is said, that the death of mind is the birth of wisdom.
I remember Huifeng saying; "No death, no Zen"

Well, this "death on the cushion" that our teacher was encouraging in us was 'way before "The Great Death". And The Great Death is actually "Death, Followed By a Resurrection." So it is, in the Zen Buddhist way, I'd say.

--Joe
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Re: chaos

Postby Nothing on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:00 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Sorry I did not mean to imply that the "opening of the Heart" is somehow excluded from zazen or is counterproductive, I was only pointing to the pitfalls and uselessness of intellectual efforts..


Fuka,

First, thanks for starting this thread and for your opening post and I can relate to some degree with your experience as well to the others.

Related to the quotation, not that I do not agree with you, I just want to add something from my very limited experience.

I have never done any other practice except zazen and the correct intellectual understanding of some aspects of the Buddhadarma, has helped me to correct the practice, both on the cushion and in every day life. So I think that practice and intellectual understanding complement each-other if balanced and correctly applied.


- Viktor
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:14 pm

Thanks Victor, I agree that dhyana and contemplation should be in harmony. Only using one's intellect to force matters or believe knowledge equals understanding is a mistake.

For instance one can know 10 or a 100 people but by knowing people do you understand them? Gaining knowledge is useless if it isn't digested into understanding.

Friends say they know me and some say they understand me but I don't even recognize the face in my bathroom mirror. So what are they talking about? There's nothing to see in things which appear to them, there's no wisdom only appearance knowledge.

In my view without wisdom/compassion nothing can be understood yet everything can be known. And this cannot be forced by intellectual efforts.
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Re: chaos

Postby Caodemarte on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:17 am

Nothing wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:
Sorry I did not mean to imply that the "opening of the Heart" is somehow excluded from zazen or is counterproductive, I was only pointing to the pitfalls and uselessness of intellectual efforts..


Fuka,

First, thanks for starting this thread and for your opening post and I can relate to some degree with your experience as well to the others.

Related to the quotation, not that I do not agree with you, I just want to add something from my very limited experience.

I have never done any other practice except zazen and the correct intellectual understanding of some aspects of the Buddhadarma, has helped me to correct the practice, both on the cushion and in every day life. So I think that practice and intellectual understanding complement each-other if balanced and correctly applied.


- Viktor


The attendant for one well known roshi (head of a major Zen monastery and also known as a scholar) in Japan overheard him berating one student for always looking for answers in books and telling him to "get your nose out of the books." Another day he heard him complaining to another student, "Would it kill you to open a God damn book once in a while?" Different advice for different folks.
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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:29 am

fukasetsu wrote:
Oheso wrote:If "using zazen" as one's dominate practice is often not enough or counter-productive (to awakening?) how does the arrow penetrate to the point of the frozen emotional being? I feel I often have a litany of "emotional issues" to review and release in the practice of zazen. stirred or shaken?

gassho, O


Sorry I did not mean to imply that the "opening of the Heart" is somehow excluded from zazen or is counterproductive, I was only pointing to the pitfalls and uselessness of intellectual efforts. The "penetrating of the arrow" depends on the individual, for some it's a "sudden spiritual experience" for others it can be an event like sharing time with a loved one for months in the process of their death, or "dying together". Just two examples, not saying the "dramatic" experience is somehow negative but it is transforming.


Good saying.
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Re: chaos

Postby Nothing on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:52 am

fukasetsu wrote:In my view without wisdom/compassion nothing can be understood yet everything can be known. And this cannot be forced by intellectual efforts.


Well said Fuka :Namaste:
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Re: chaos

Postby Nothing on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:39 am

Caodemarte wrote:The attendant for one well known roshi (head of a major Zen monastery and also known as a scholar) in Japan overheard him berating one student for always looking for answers in books and telling him to "get your nose out of the books." Another day he heard him complaining to another student, "Would it kill you to open a God damn book once in a while?" Different advice for different folks.


I agree Caodemarte, very good example of skillful means in action.

P.S. I do not mean at all that what works/worked for me will work for somebody else too, in case the previous post was understood in that way.


- Victor
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:49 am

Nothing wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:The attendant for one well known roshi (head of a major Zen monastery and also known as a scholar) in Japan overheard him berating one student for always looking for answers in books and telling him to "get your nose out of the books." Another day he heard him complaining to another student, "Would it kill you to open a God damn book once in a while?" Different advice for different folks.


I agree Caodemarte, very good example of skillful means in action.

P.S. I do not mean at all that what works/worked for me will work for somebody else too, in case the previous post was understood in that way.
- Victor


Yes good example and a very funny one

It's all relative and it's all in relation (emptiness)
Good to see you again, Victor. :)
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Re: chaos

Postby Nothing on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:27 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Good to see you again, Victor. :)


Likewise Fuki. :)
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:51 pm

JessicaLeigh wrote:Thanks for your post fuki... much of what you say I'm actively working on these days. Reminds me of a concept I've heard some teachers talk about: "spiritual bypassing." It means to use meditation or other "spiritual" methods in order to avoid working through emotional trauma. For me it's a pitfall I need be aware of, and I like the language you use of clearing the heart, not only the mind.


“In the book Spiritual Bypassing, Robert Masters has written about an important wake up call to all people with spiritual inclinations. It is a wake up call that rings true, and is aligned with what genuine Buddhist masters have always taught: do not think you can jump to the top of the ladder.

Robert Masters points to a range of unhealthy traits that may arise from unfounded and non-guided spiritual training: Excessive detachment ability; One-sided focus on positive thinking; Fear of anger and artificial kindness; Neglect of emotions; Difficulty in setting limits; No interest in real psychotherapeutic work; An intellectual intelligence that is far ahead of the emotional and moral intelligence; Focus on the absolute rather than the relative and personal; Somewhat inflated ideas about their own cognitive level.

Is there an alarm bell ringing? Are you able to say that you are completely free? Every genuine master whom I have had the luxury of receiving teachings from has always stressed that we need to cultivate from the inside out. With the concept of bypassing, Masters describes how many so-called spiritual people [are] missing out on imperative psychological development. He compares it to being hoisted down to the mountaintop by a helicopter. We end up without a reliable or firm foundation. Our view is not deserved nor supported from within, but bought and achieved without the appropriate foundational work. We simply have to climb all the way to the top if we really want to be free.”

http://levekunst.com/spiritual-bypassing/

Thanks for the reminder Jessica.
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