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chaos

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chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:34 am

Lately in my direct daily offline enviroment I've been noticing and recognizing within friends, family and acquaintances that their practise or methods they use in order to have a more peaceful mind or less stressful life are not having the desired effect, even after years of efforts.
Most of these involve "practises" like mindfulness, psychology, some form of meditation or yoga etc. But it happens in Zen training too, there are plenty of practisioners who sit to no avail, or who study scripture to no avail.

What is often missed is that we cannot dissolve the chaos in our minds without dissolving the chaos in our hearts. People put a lot of effort in practises which involve expedients of mind without being aware of their deep emotional churning conflicts, whatever they might be.

When I look back at my own past, I realized I didn't really progress much for the first 10 years, apart from deceiving myself thinking to be an enlightening individual but basically all I had was stored intellectual Buddhist knowledge and logic which I used to outsmart others in intellectual battles, but in daily life it had little or no effect although ofcourse I thought I was in a state much higher then your average sentient being.

For instance back then when I still trained and relied on memory, I used to recite parts of the Diamond Sutra or other texts throughout the day in my mind, it's how I would spend my day at work, which I basically used to surpress as a way to negate that what was actually emotionally bothering me.

”How do you construe thus, monks — Is consciousness constant or
inconstant?”

“Inconstant, lord.”

“And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?”

“Stressful, lord.”

“And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject
to change as: ‘This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am’?”

“No, lord.”

“Any consciousness whatsoever — past, future, or present; internal
or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every
consciousness — is to be seen as it actually is with right
discernment as: ‘This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not
what I am.'”

~Anattalakkhana Sutta


I used to recite this among other texts for years countless times a day, I would recite mantras like "gate gate parasamgate bodhi sattva" all day long (which actually did help with weightlifting a bit too much actually) Constantly reciting "this is not mine, this is not myself etc" it only had the effect that I was in a state of denial regarding conflicts of the heart, and simultaniously fooling myself there was no problem, for I am not the body, not the mind, not feelings or emotions etc.

It was only later by help of a dear friend in the online Dharma who showed me I never really looked into the heart of the matter (pun intended) which for me were some deep deep emotional knots or conflicts which I thought were basically just ghosts of the past with no meaning or relation to what I was trying to accomplish. But by opening up and recognizing these conflicts they dissolved in the very recognition, and immediately my meditation practise beared fruit. All this intellectual knowledge which I treasured and memorized as if it were Gollum's precious ring, became completely meaningless. (not saying it is meaningless but in that context it was) I realized I pretty much wasted 10 years in sitting on cushions and reciting texts of ancients.

It is true that one cannot "let go" what one does not understand!

I notice ppl wondering why the same chaos keeps recurring and basically living in a loophole of their own narrative, sure they experience a day of peace, or perhaps a week of peace, but the same chaos keeps coming back. In my experience this is because they don't recognize their own churning conflicts. Always "emptying" the mind but adding weight to the heart, it's ironic! Emptying the mind makes it no clearer!

I don't write this for experienced practisioners, but for people who are still unaware and might find benefit looking at things from a different perspective, perhaps others can chip in and share their own experience.

Thanks.
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Re: chaos

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:36 am

thank you, fuki, 4 d beautiful and "weighty" post!
fuki wrote
What is often missed is that we cannot dissolve the chaos in our minds without dissolving the chaos in our hearts

sometimes someone says it clearer than if one talked 2 oneself.
emotions are the ringleader of thoughts
thnx friend b
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burst into flames

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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:45 am

If you have a problem you can always go to churce or a Zendo or whatever.

Yes, you are right fukasetsu there is a cultural bachground to the mantras and the text and some may or may not fitt in to this or that cultural frame.

My mother is at the moment in Amsterdam, with guy, looking at there and she told my about Rembrants house too! 1600:then centuary!


:)
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:35 pm

bokki wrote:thank you, fuki, 4 d beautiful and "weighty" post!


Thanks amigo, my pleasure Image

Yes they are the ringleader of thoughts, and vice versa, can be pretty confusing.
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:42 pm

TTT wrote:Yes, you are right fukasetsu there is a cultural bachground to the mantras and the text and some may or may not fitt in to this or that cultural frame.

TTT, what I was refering to is that reciting mantra, learning text and so on will often be just an intellectual grasping which can be unnoticed for years without guidance or a helpful friend holding a mirror. Sutras are medicine too, saying "this is not mine, this is not my self" is merely an antidote which came into being due to the erroneous perception of a (fixed/abiding) self, so taking these words as some new found truth, can actually do more damage then good If you know what I mean, when you're having a fever and you get the wrong medicine prescribed, or you use the correct medicine wrongly the fever will only get worse!

Cultural difference are indeed also something which can be an obstacle but if you feel drawn to a path then those things shouldn't be a problem, especially if you know the meaning behind the ceremonies and start to appreciate them.


My mother is at the moment in Amsterdam, with guy, looking at there and she told my about Rembrants house too! 1600:then centuary!
:)


Nice, I hope she enjoys her stay and comes back with only good stories, but mind the pickpocketing though, there are a lot of them in the tourist area. :)
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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:19 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
TTT wrote:Yes, you are right fukasetsu there is a cultural bachground to the mantras and the text and some may or may not fitt in to this or that cultural frame.

TTT, what I was refering to is that reciting mantra, learning text and so on will often be just an intellectual grasping which can be unnoticed for years without guidance or a helpful friend holding a mirror. Sutras are medicine too, saying "this is not mine, this is not my self" is merely an antidote which came into being due to the erroneous perception of a (fixed/abiding) self, so taking these words as some new found truth, can actually do more damage then good If you know what I mean, when you're having a fever and you get the wrong medicine prescribed, or you use the correct medicine wrongly the fever will only get worse!


I´am just a beginner on this topic.
I am talking about cultural setting.
The mening of it,
in relation to mantras and sutras, if you may!
How they are used?


You are tuching what it is to be a practichoner, buddhist in this case.

So what is it, to be a practiconar of eny "good" religion?

If i take your example, gate gate paragate parasam gate bodi svaha.
I use sanskrit here "svaha".
and you use it too, i Think, with a "bodi sattva" conotation. So what is the differens??

For my, and i am speaking of my personal experienses, medicin is Always medicin. IF you call it that!

If am this person or thet person, and i get medicin from the doctor, it will have an efferct on my, whether i take it or not. Say it s a mental effect!

If talking about the Buddha in terms of medicin, how to say, the teaching is medicin for the practicioners of the Buddha- Dharma.

If i belever i am a good person, i may be thet. But its not a fact.

:Namaste:
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:02 pm

TTT wrote:I´am just a beginner on this topic.
I am talking about cultural setting.
The mening of it,
in relation to mantras and sutras, if you may!
How they are used?
You are tuching what it is to be a practichoner, buddhist in this case.


Triple-T

I am “only” a lay practisioner for 20 years (on and off)
If I understand your question right a Teacher or a Sangha member can help here
I only know how they are incorrectly used, because I’ve used them myself incorrectly
That is what my post is based upon, on my own errors, see?
You could ask then why didn’t you go practise with a teacher 20 years ago,
Well causes and conditions.

So what is it, to be a practiconar of eny "good" religion?

If i take your example, gate gate paragate parasam gate bodi svaha.
I use sanskrit here "svaha".
and you use it too, i Think, with a "bodi sattva" conotation. So what is the differens??


Sorry, I have difficulties understanding what you mean.

For my, and i am speaking of my personal experienses, medicin is Always medicin. IF you call it that!


I’d love to hear about them!

If am this person or thet person, and i get medicin from the doctor, it will have an efferct on my, whether i take it or not. Say it s a mental effect!


But you want it to have the right effect, you’re not gonna take antibiotics for a headache, you’d take a paracetamol, right?

If talking about the Buddha in terms of medicin, how to say, the teaching is medicin for the practicioners of the Buddha- Dharma.

Medicine are best described or explained by a teacher, as I said I’ve used them wrongly and I also picked up some which were beneficial to some degree

If i belever i am a good person, i may be thet. But its not a fact.

Well, beyond the relative meaning of “good or evil” everyone in their heart knows how to discern right from wrong, if you have good intention for all beings, then those good intention will create good karma, especially if good intentions result in good actions.

Sorry if I didn’t understand your questions correctly.
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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:47 am

I think you understude it a bit. It lookes like it when i was looking at your respns.

:heya:
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Re: chaos

Postby JessicaLeigh on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:02 am

Thanks for your post fuki... much of what you say I'm actively working on these days. Reminds me of a concept I've heard some teachers talk about: "spiritual bypassing." It means to use meditation or other "spiritual" methods in order to avoid working through emotional trauma. For me it's a pitfall I need be aware of, and I like the language you use of clearing the heart, not only the mind.
"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." -Andrè Gide
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Re: chaos

Postby TigerDuck on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:44 am

fukasetsu wrote:It is true that one cannot "let go" what one does not understand!


What you said is indeed very true.

In my personal experience, it is absolutely pointless to practice if we are unable to unlock the heart of the issue, which is emptiness.

This emptiness must be realized first, and not just at the intellectual level. If this is not realized, how far we can go only depends on how strong our willpower is.

There are people who practice so hard to unlock this emptiness, but there are also people who don't care about this emptiness but just practicing like chanting or visiting temple regularly. I don't see how fruitful it can be for the latter approach.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:40 am

Its an intresting word chaos. In wikipedia it s Greek and it means devauer.
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:05 pm

JessicaLeigh wrote:Thanks for your post fuki... much of what you say I'm actively working on these days. Reminds me of a concept I've heard some teachers talk about: "spiritual bypassing." It means to use meditation or other "spiritual" methods in order to avoid working through emotional trauma. For me it's a pitfall I need be aware of, and I like the language you use of clearing the heart, not only the mind.


Yes that's exactly what I did, taking Buddhism (or anything for that matter) to actually repress something and imagining I was adding something to my life or happiness or spiritual experiences, Buddhism was for me as for others could be drugs, or wealth, or fame, or whatever we do to distract ourselfs from the real issue. I do know that word via my friend in the Dharma, it popped up once or twice :)

I'ts ironic we do a lot of things to distract ourselfs, what we think is adding, is actually subtracting.
It's like spending money on useless things one only thinks he needs, you think you add something to life or happiness while
the bank account gets less. Or we think we subtract but are actually adding, like karmic banking, how confusing :lol2:

Glad you are aware of it and working on it (which can't be forced by intellectual efforts)
Much better then sticking your head in the sand. :heya:
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:11 pm

TigerDuck wrote:What you said is indeed very true.

In my personal experience, it is absolutely pointless to practice if we are unable to unlock the heart of the issue, which is emptiness.

This emptiness must be realized first, and not just at the intellectual level. If this is not realized, how far we can go only depends on how strong our willpower is.

There are people who practice so hard to unlock this emptiness, but there are also people who don't care about this emptiness but just practicing like chanting or visiting temple regularly. I don't see how fruitful it can be for the latter approach.


I agree from my view it is pointless, on the other hand any angle of vision is limited and it's no coincidence that so many practises and expedient came into being to match the needs of sentient beings, so I couldn't call it pointless in itself, only relating to my personal path.
I'm positive there is some merit involved in all practising even though it seems to be pointless from our view.
But with merit I'd say one's intentions are vital here, that one's practise is not born out of selfish reasons,
then I'd say it's absolutely pointless. But again that view is limited relating to my current understanding.
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:19 pm

TTT wrote:Its an intresting word chaos. In wikipedia it s Greek and it means devauer.


In Greek mythology/cosmology "chaos" refers to the state of complete "nothingness" prior to the appearance of "seperated entities"
and with devour we could say all things arise and are devoured in "chaos"
Btw I'm just playing here, in no way am I implying there is something to see here and compare it with Buddhist philosophy. :heya:

But in this context I'd like to say "chaos" is like a superimposition upon primoridal awareness.
chaos is emptiness... emptiness is chaos :lol2:

But it just means confusion or disorder, as in there is no harmony between heart and mind.

ps Christopher noted us on this forum that in Japanese they have no distinctive word for mind or heart,
it's called "kokoro"
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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:46 pm

I think thet chaos has a negative conotation.
Its what entropi is to the matterial world, what stagnation and distress is in the social and political world.

I was playing a computer game today and it made my think about this.

I dont like it.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/chaos

Here, in the game you are the hero and you go after a guy named antenta! He is an ally to you.
What you do basikly is plunder and kill monsters, for example marauder. This is chaos.

In war there are soldiers going out for killing and plundering, marauder, for example in the gulf war, desert sheld and desert storm.
This is awful, call it what you will but its awfull.

But, names, in general, has power over the world they "loock" beings and things in to sertenty, nothing liberating in that.

What is a marauder, what is chaos?

What is a life? And what is it worth?



Buddha is good and so on, he/she has nothing to do with chaos, there are monastic orders, various schools and levels of attainments.
And you can always make amens, from your evil deads commited by body, speech and mind.

You are not in eternal hell and you are not limbo. But some people are, humans.

This is the world as we know it.

:Namaste:
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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:58 pm

I promis you if you play to much of this computer games, you can become a polis officer!

:rbow:
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:01 pm

TTT wrote:I think thet chaos has a negative conotation.


TTT, no word is what it is in itself.
It depends on the mind of the reader or hearer of the word.
For instance the word flower will probable not be a pejorative connotation (thanks Spike) to many
but someone on hearing the world "flower" might have an association with a loved one dying in a field of flowers.

So it's relative, I understand how it can appear to be negative to you or whoever, but you can't say it is negative itself. :heya:

And the inner war is as destructive as an outer war is, something a "spiritual war" is what actually brings order and clarity again.
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Re: chaos

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:03 pm

TTT wrote:I promis you if you play to much of this computer games, you can become a polis officer!

:rbow:


Try xbox kinect, you can do yoga, boxing, track and field, it's good physical practise. :lol2:
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Re: chaos

Postby TTT on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:19 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
TTT wrote:I promis you if you play to much of this computer games, you can become a polis officer!

:rbow:


Try xbox kinect, you can do yoga, boxing, track and field, it's good physical practise. :lol2:


Ye, i have tryed it. Is cool!
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Re: chaos

Postby lobster on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:25 am

As well as mind, word and emotional clearance, we have a body to sweep up after.

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