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Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

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Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:31 pm

"Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision":

    ...an image I had the other day. It seemed "catchy" (I wonder if the Internet and the search-engines will run with it).
But I'd say that this is one of the fruits of practice: Vision -- and apperception, generally -- opens like a funnel, from having earlier been more like a tunnel (or a Searchlight).

--Joe

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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:14 pm

Joe, what does apperception mean?
Never heared the word before but it appears in English and Dutch but I've never heared the word used in a sentence,
when search engining the word I get so many different angles and meanings on it that it's best to ask you about it's meaning and use.
Thanks.

(ps in Dutch it literally playfully suggests monkeyception, but I'm positive you don't mean discursive thought)
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:50 pm

hiya, Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:Joe, what does apperception mean?
...
(ps in Dutch it literally playfully suggests monkeyception, but I'm positive you don't mean discursive thought)

It just means "perception".

But, why use a fifty-cent word when you can use a good two-dollar word? ;)

We see the same funny-business in a couple of other words, synonyms of each other: "Flammable", and "Inflammable".

But I'd say that "apperception" is more like the process of perception, rather than the content of perception(s). So, I chose to use it.
Maybe I use it wrongly sometimes. I'm not beyond doing that! For Science! Or Love! :)

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:42 pm

Thank you Sir, (for Love)
I was only interested in your usage of it, so now I know.
I was already 3 sentences in regarding a metaphysical article when I lost interest.

I cannot relate to anything you say about tunnel or funnel so perhaps this topic is not for me,
but perhaps someone else surprises me.
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:36 pm

fuki,

I'm sure you "get" it, though, that "Funnel Vision" may be like a camera seeing with a wide-angle lens, while "Tunnel Vision" would be like using a "telephoto" lens, or ...looking through a soda-straw.
(interesting that "tunnel vision" can be abbreviated "t.v.": coincidence??) :lol2:

--Joe

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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:16 pm

Joe I get that I know what a funnel or tunnel is like mind can know everything yet understand nothing (we only have to understand that "one thing" and everything else becomes clear.

What I dont get is how this relates to perception, vision or related practise, whatever I perceive or just aware of perception itself has no circumfence or location so I'm completely oblivious to what you mean, I do know the funnel thingy regarding marketing strategy but Im positive again you're not trying to sell me anything :lol2:

Although you do give me something for free which I enjoy ;)

Are all astronomers as mysterious as you or am I just missing what's closer then my own breath again? :lol2:
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:50 pm

fuki,

This "tunnel" / "funnel" pair that I like so much, here, is very literal (actual, I mean).

And I like the fact that they differ in spelling by just one letter, in English. And yet mean such divergent things.

Well... how to explain what I mean by posting them HERE? "Let's see"... .

OK. I DO truly mean that perception can be (simply is... ) very wide, "given" no-mind, in awakening. I hadn't mentioned no-mind, yet, in this thread.

And, perception can be very narrow or "focused", given a mind-state that feels itself able to exclude everything else, and "stare". "Staring" is something impossible to do, from no-mind, though, completely impossible. In fact, the visual-field appears to have no center.

Remarkable.

And so, I remark on it.

I'd say that there are many other remarkable things in this pair, and in perception, when there is no mind, ...or when there is or no-mind.

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:59 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:OK. I DO truly mean that perception can be (simply is... ) very wide, "given" no-mind.


Aha!
In my (limited) angle of vision I call that (or its prerequisite) opening up the space to appreciate one's nature (or essence of mind)
I understand very wide indeed.

Thank you I knew there was something "there"

ps a pigeon just flew through the open door while I was typing this response instead of its usual designation which is the balcony landing 1 meter next to me, it startled me quite a bit, fuki was shaken too she immediately jumped up and hid in another room, only the other cat was very interested in the pigeon :lol2:

still no relation for me to tunnel or funnel but "open wide" yes, perhaps I always miss the process of opening?
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:18 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
And, perception can be very narrow or "focused", given a mind-state that feels itself able to exclude everything else, and "stare". "Staring" is something impossible to do, from no-mind, though, completely impossible. In fact, the visual-field appears to have no center.


I cannot say to be positive entirely to what you mean, but I once had an insane (insane to me) samadhi experience which I shared with Guo Gu, whom was very helpful explaining it to me (and also the fact that in that experience there was still a self) but the experience due to coming out of that Samadhi again made me very angry and decided I wanted to have nothing to do with practise ever again (because I didn't want to experience that "birth" again, the "death" was great though)
In any case what you say I can relate to that experience but you might mean something completely different.

It took me a year even with Guo Gu's help to be motivated into practising again, and I'm not asking you anything for obvious reasons that you might reply "I won't say!" ;)

In any case, thank you for opening up to me and perhaps already saying "too much" out in the open.
:Namaste:
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:36 pm

ps "focused perception" just happens through the senses as I see it, so we can focus on this screen or the sound of a bird, but I still don't feel or am aware it has a location, sure I'm aware of what is happening now that the perception focuses to be able to make this post but in full attention there is never a center arising, I'm still trying to feel that tunnel or funnel :lol2:

I got the television reference though, fullvision hmmm, or the vision of no-vision i.e. perception not dependent on sensory perception or the conditioned mind, is that in the ballpark?
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby partofit22 on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:03 pm

When you (general you / anyone) break out of a "stare" do you experience tunnel vision upon the breaking away from one or funnel vision?
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:09 pm

partofit22 wrote:When you (general you / anyone) break out of a "stare" do you experience tunnel vision upon the breaking away from one or funnel vision?


Not here Teresa, there's just perception, which cannot be started or stopped, I understand there is a shift of attention in consciousness, but I've never felt or experienced a tunnel or funnel. I have -3 eyesight and there's a history of dementia and psychiatric ailments in the dna of our family, but I've been checked by neurologists and had MRI scans and crazy tests in my teenage years so perhaps they didn't find anything missing which there is (brain wise) :lol2:

Do you experience that tunnel/funnel thingy Joe's refering to?
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:19 pm

Teresa,

partofit22 wrote:When you (general you / anyone) break out of a "stare" do you experience tunnel vision upon the breaking away from one or funnel vision?

The question is not relevant. My fault!

The reason it's not relevant is that I note that in the awakened state, one cannot stare: it is impossible, as I say. Therefore, one cannot stare. So, one does not, as you say, "break out of a stare", because one can never "get into" one.

I'd say that if one stares in the un-awakened state, and then ceases to stare... well, I am just not interested in that condition, and am not commenting above on it. Anyone?

--Joe

p.s. but if paid a good dollop of ice-cream, I'd say that, in the un-awakened state, if one stares, and then ceases to stare, one experiences fuller vision (than a stare), but not funnel vision (such as I call it). Funnel vision is the word I reserve for vision in the awakened state. (now, who's buying the ice-cream (pul-lease)? ). ;)
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:26 pm

Joe,

I do experience the "impossible to stare" as you say, but according to Guo Gu it had nothing to do with the undarkening state and there was still a (subtle) sense of self.

I won't go on about it, I'll probably only know what you mean when I come out of that tunnel I'm not aware I'm in so to speak :lol2:

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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:41 pm

Fuki-ster,

fukasetsu wrote:I won't go on about it, I'll probably only know what you mean when I come out of that tunnel I'm not aware I'm in so to speak

Right. Well, coming out of a samadhi-condition unwillingly is not the same as awakening.

Guo Gu advised you correctly, I'd say.

Sudden awakening occurs -- at least in one kind of instance! -- as samadhi breaks up suddenly before your open eyes, and you have nothing. "Kai wu", my teacher called it. "Having nothing". Well said!, Shihfu. :rbow:

But there is plenty of joy, and definitely no anger.

Strong practice,

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:45 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Fuki-ster,
Right. Well, coming out of a samadhi-condition unwillingly is not the same as awakening. Guo Gu advised you correctly, I'd say. Sudden awakening occurs -- at least in one kind of instance! -- as samadhi breaks up suddenly before your open eyes, and you have nothing. "Kai wu", my teacher called it. "Having nothing". Well said!, Shihfu. :rbow:

But there is plenty of joy, and definitely no anger.

Strong practice,

--Joe


Thanks Joe.

I see what you did though, creating a topic just to show;
"Hey look what's possible" And anyone inquiring being adviced to practise with a teacher and Sangha.

Practise is strong these days, much obliged.


(there was joy, so much joy and bliss beyond description, the anger involved being born again)
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:48 pm

fuki-ster,

fukasetsu wrote:I see what you did though, creating a topic just to show;
"Hey look what's possible" And anyone inquiring being adviced to practise with a teacher and Sangha.

Oops! Am I that transparent? (but doesn't "transparent" mean I'm invisible?). :lol2:

Practise is strong these days, much obliged.

Continued strong practice,

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:51 pm

:lol2:

Joe, either you're transparent or I have just been paying attention (I can be perceptive)
or a reasonable combination of the two :lol2:

Thanks again.

(ps I realize the anger was very selfish, but back then I didn't have "Bodhisattva feelings", it's a work in progress)

:Namaste:
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:16 pm

Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:(ps I realize the anger was very selfish, but back then I didn't have "Bodhisattva feelings", it's a work in progress)

Samadhi, if it was samadhi (or even "Access"-consciousness, as the Vipassana-workers say), is easy to regain / retrain, if one has kept-on practicing at a certain regularity and have favorable conditions. Rest assured.

But continuously "breaking new ground" (expanding one's efforts, time on the cushions, and skills) is always to be recommended. This is so in case one has back-slidden, and doesn't realize one has back-slid. Anyway, this is what I recommend to students when I teach certain Buddhist yoga classes. "Always go about breaking new ground".

Don't mind me! Better that a thorough-teacher, like Guo Gu, give guidance. As a Dharma-brother, I'll just try to encourage, and, I hope, not mislead.

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:44 pm

Joe, there were a few lasting between 4-8 hours in which there was no "universe" impossible to describe, I'm thankful for Guo Gu's guidance and yours too!

Regarding the experience I really dont want it again (though it was utter bliss) yeah I know no grasping or rejecting, but currently I'm much more interested in observations in silence and the workings of "mind" whatever else comes is out of my hands anyway, I wont invite or block it.

Never heared of access consciousness and not going to look it up, I have plenty of word knowledge already which isnt conducive to awakening.
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