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Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:10 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Never heared of access consciousness and not going to look it up, I have plenty of word knowledge already which isnt conducive to awakening.

It's easy; bless you! I'm often lax to look things up, too, and disparage mere dictionary-"daffynitions". And, I'm getting worse. Working on it, though. On getting worse... . ;)

But, it's easy. For the Vipassana workers ("Theravadins?"), Access Consciousness , or Access Concentration -- sometimes just called "Access", for short -- is taught to be the state or condition prior to any of the eight jnanas (samadhis) coming on, in any given practice sit. It's also known as "Neighborhood"-Concentration, "...because at that point, the meditator is neighboring or close to accessing jnana" (--R. Shankman, The Experience of Samadhi; 2008, p.56).

In Pali, Access is called upacara samadhi. "Upacara"; approach to, or access to. "Samadhi"; absorption.

:Namaste:

best,

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:27 pm

Joe you made me look it up! :lol2:

no it was way beyond upacara samadhi, all guo gu said that it was a Samadhi but more importantly he said what it wasn't.

My own intuition tells me that the experience isn't conducive to awakening at all (but it's a memory at least and I learned something from it) the experience was also a direct result of mixing expedients from other traditions as you would say "Hinduism" with Ch'an, after the last experience I was like fuck this (coming out of the experience and to my shock realizing I'm Marcel that I have a body that there is such a thing as a spinning planet) so I figured ok I stay here the best way to avoid those experiences is to then go have fun with sex, whiskey and partying.

It really took me a year to digest the experience (whatever kind of samadhi it was, GG didn't go into details and I dont care about it) GG said that it was remarkable I got this far on my own but I decided to take a year of, lately I feel drawn to you know what more and more and well, we'll see...
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:42 pm

Dear Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Joe you made me look it up! :lol2:

When will I ever learn?, me, hassling sentient beings like that all the time! :lol2:

fukasetsu wrote:no it was way beyond upacara samadhi, all guo gu said that it was a Samadhi but more importantly he said what it wasn't.

Oh, I don't and can't say your experience was "Access", but you said you hadn't heard of Access, so I wrote a li'l spiel on it. No connection... .

fukasetsu wrote:My own intuition tells me that the experience isn't conducive to awakening at all (but it's a memory at least and I learned something from it)

A "makyo" is possible too. This is not necessarily a twist within a samadhi state, but it can be just some random arising, which may last even quite a while, sitting. Attend sesshin, or other retreat, and you may begin to learn about (experience some) makyo! ;) They are illusory states, and can be disquieting, or can be very settling, and seductive (Caution!). But they sometimes hint that a person is close to awakening, practicing well, so it can be important to report makyo to the teacher on duty. Not saying I know what you experienced!, but just saying that there are many (interesting -- sometimes too interesting!) possibilities. :tongueincheek:

--Upāsaka Guo Xiang ("Joe")
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:06 am

"hassling sentient beings" :lol2:

Joe I never heared of makyo before but I definitely had some just reading about it, and for sure would I say all my experience are illusory I have no doubt about that. Which was part of the "anger" returning to "relative reality" :lol2:

ps with partying I dont me on a daily basis as if I was some heedless person that is not in my character or karma.
It's actually these possibilities you speak of which cautioned me and decided that it wouldnt be wise to continue meditating on my own in such a deep absorbing way sometimes I was gone for 8 hours and I found myself returning to everyday consciousness naked in the middle of the winter, if I really put my "will" at something there seem to be no limits so I figured daily life as an ordinary Joe would be a wise decision.

Not that I stopped practising but I stopped with the cushion time, and Im still careful with it I dont allow myself to go further then 1 hour now, and I deliberately keep it "light" not because I'm afraid of the possibilities I just feel it isn't wise to do so without guidance. In any case karma is what draws me to a certain school and teacher and this is what my gut tells me.
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:56 am

Fuki,

This is not too related, perhaps, but it's my pleasure and honor to be able to recommend this short video, which many here have seen before, a couple of years ago.

The filmmaker in this 10-minute video, at the link below, features Ven. Sheng Yen's youngest Dharma-heir, Ven. Guo Jun, a Ch'an master who is becoming better known, and who has a book available (and more videos on YouTube, under his name).

The filmmaker makes some rapid cuts and splices in the first minutes, and mixes subjects rather indiscriminately, but it's not too confusing, I hope. Soon after, we see Master Guo Jun demonstrating the practice of several of the Ch'an "morning wake-up" exercises such as practiced on Chan retreat, and we see some very slow prostrations, all wonderful and helpful practices for health and for zazen. Anyone who practices with any of Sheng Yen's Dharma heirs will learn these practices.

Very moving to me is Guo Jun's account of his first opening experience, his awakening, where "everything stops". Wonderful. Best wishes, All. --Joe

:rbow:,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5nB42Xym7o&feature=youtu.be

desert_woodworker wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:I won't go on about it, I'll probably only know what you mean when I come out of that tunnel I'm not aware I'm in so to speak

Right. Well, coming out of a samadhi-condition unwillingly is not the same as awakening.

Guo Gu advised you correctly, I'd say.

Sudden awakening occurs -- at least in one kind of instance! -- as samadhi breaks up suddenly before your open eyes, and you have nothing. "Kai wu", my teacher called it. "Having nothing". Well said!, Shihfu. :rbow:

But there is plenty of joy, and definitely no anger.
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:58 am

I was thinking about everything that has been said on this topic while doing house renovation

Bob Dylan's Knock'n on Heaven's Door came on

:heya:
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:05 pm

Joe, very moving what a beautiful man! :rbow:

I'll subtitle this video in Dutch for my mom, she would love to see this to clear up some worrying images she might have concerning a life of a Buddhist. Thanks!
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:20 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:I'll subtitle this video in Dutch for my mom, she would love to see this to clear up some worrying images she might have concerning a life of a Buddhist. Thanks!

Great!

If you have any doubts about any of Master Guo Jun's words in the video, perhaps due to his slight accent, or faintness of the audio-strength at places, please contact me, say, with the time-identification in the video at such points, and I'll do my best to send you the English words to the best of my ability to hear them and distinguish them. Best wishes with this beautiful project. My best wishes to Mom and to you!

:)

--Layman Joe (Upasaka Guo Xiang)
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:58 pm

Thanks!

I watched it this morning and got most of it, I'll be using my headphones when creating and timing the srt file.
If I don't hear something I will ask you instead of doing the usual, listening back 20-30 times before I get the word.

I actually subtitled a 2 hour movie like this once, took me 12 hours or so :lol2:
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:14 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks!

I watched it this morning and got most of it, I'll be using my headphones when creating and timing the srt file.
If I don't hear something I will ask you instead of doing the usual, listening back 20-30 times before I get the word.

I actually subtitled a 2 hour movie like this once, took me 12 hours or so :lol2:

I hope the transcription, translation, and sub-titling will go smoothly.

I've wondered whether this 10-minute short movie is or was a part of a larger film, but I don't find any info on that possibility. I may just have to contact the filmmaker with that question. He must have shot much more video, in any case. Maybe he'll put the "out-takes" up on a site somewhere if this short film is all he means to publish in finished-form.

Best wishes for the subtitling project! I hope too that you'll be able to watch the finished-product with your Mom in case she has questions you can answer, or reactions to share. It's such a short film, though! But I don't think it misleads or misinforms in any way.

--Joe
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Re: Funnel-Vision vs. Tunnel-Vision

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:30 pm

That's a good idea Joe, contacting the filmmaker, who knows.

The project is a small one, yesterday I remembered the project but after 5 seconds my pc crashed, not "in the mood" in this very moment, but shouldn't be too long. Nothing misleading in the film, especially love the "becoming the grass" part.
I pefer to take walks alone, when I walk with people they always go "oh hear that bird sound" "what bird is that" "look at that bird"
and I sigh because my "neither subject/object" mode is broken again, no biggy, shouldn't be selfish people need to talk, but not all of the time please, not when in nature do I want to cognize the words. :EEK:
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