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BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby TigerDuck on Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:29 am

Dan74 wrote:Yes and so is your answer that the habitual monkey-mind captive to the past and enthralled by fantasies of the future, is the way?


Yes, it is the way.

Our ordinary mind is like that, always jumping here and there, and this character is indeed the way.

Ordinary mind is the way. The way is not the mind that has been twisted here and there to the extend that some May regard that as Super mind or something ultra mind state.

We need to clarify few things first.

There is no such thing called past and future. There is only this:
Present-past
Present-present
Present-future.

Whatever nonsense we want to say that as past or future, we must admit that is present.

Another thing is we are always aware even during sleep, that is why we can recognise dream.

The problem is not being into the present. That is not the point as all of us by default cannot escape from that.

The point of the problem is we are aware to a wrong thing. We are covered by a wrong thing.
And this can only be solved with understanding, and understanding is the domain of vipassana.

When we practice Samantha, we are not practicing being at the present. We are already an expert being at the present by default.

Samantha is actually a training of focusing.

There are many methods in Samantha training:
Focusing on 1 object (static object)- example when we focus on breathing, and when our mind goes somewhere else, we bring it back to breathing. Is this training of awareness / training to be at present? No. It is a training of focus.

Focusing on many objects (dynamic objects) - example when we focus on breathing, our mind think of Paris. Fine, we shift the focus into Paris. Shift again to Rome, fine focus again to Rome. Is this training to be at present? No. It is a training of focus.

Focus on no object / objectless Samantha - this is an advance level where you can be in focus but your focus not fixed to any object. You can just be aware. Is this training to be at present? No. This is also just training on focus so you can be free of engaging object.

The Essenes of Samantha is non-distraction.

If we focus on flower, you are training to be non distracted to stone, for example.
When we focus on dynamic object, you are training to be nondistracted to fixing an object.
When we focus on objectless, we are training to be nondistracted to engaging object.

So being here, being at present is actually just to train the focus.

When this focus is good, we have this ability to retain it in a way we want. We have power of the object. For example we can keep fishing on flower for 5 hours even someone shake you for example. But all this is just the power of focus , not the power of being present.

Being present is only useful, when we are able to breakthrough what reality is. Once this is done, that reality becomes you or you can say your focus is the reality itself.


That is when being present becomes the way.

As Long as this reality cannot be brokenthrough, being present is good but ultimately useless.

What is the good thing if you are not distracted that you can hold a pen from 7am to 6 pm? Are you happy with that? The best thing is probably congratulation, your focus is good.

But if we can be nondistracted to the reality itself even we are holding a pen or talking to someone, then being at present has meaning.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby Caodemarte on Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:02 pm

No present either.
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby [james] on Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:18 pm

TigerDuck wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Yes and so is your answer that the habitual monkey-mind captive to the past and enthralled by fantasies of the future, is the way?


Yes, it is the way.

I would object to captive and enthralled as being the way. Liberation and captivity? Only states of mind?

Our ordinary mind is like that, always jumping here and there, and this character is indeed the way.

Ordinary mind is the way. The way is not the mind that has been twisted here and there to the extend that some May regard that as Super mind or something ultra mind state.

Yes, ordinary mind is the way. The way to what? More ordinary mind? No.

The problem is not being into the present. That is not the point as all of us by default cannot escape from that.
The point of the problem is we are aware to a wrong thing. We are covered by a wrong thing.
And this can only be solved with understanding, and understanding is the domain of vipassana.

Right/wrong thing is the domain of ordinary mind.
Past, present, future is the domain of ordinary mind.
Ordinary mind is the way (you say, I agree).
Is there any reality other than ordinary mind?

Samantha is actually a training of focusing.
....
The Essenes of Samantha is non-distraction.
....
So being here, being at present is actually just to train the focus.
....
Being present is only useful, when we are able to breakthrough what reality is. Once this is done, that reality becomes you or you can say your focus is the reality itself.

That is when being present becomes the way.

So, ordinary mind breaking through itself by focusing on itself.
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby Dan74 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:17 pm

TigerDuck, I'm not sure where the disagreement lies. Whether you say that we are aware of the wrong thing, or that the awareness is covered up, or I say that it is the habitual monkey-mind etc, it is the same thing.

Vipassana or insight is of course the way - seeing through this covering up, the habits of thought and feeling, etc.

Samatha and jhanas can be helpful for vipassana since for as long as we are captive by the habitual thoughts and emotions, we cannot attain sufficient concentration. And conversely once sufficient concentration is attained, we can use it to look into these habits and their relinquish their hold on us.

As for ordinary mind, no, I don't think the meaning is quite what you say. Sure, it is all one mind, there is no superior mind as opposed to the monkey mind. But before all arises, there is a very ordinary intimate not-knowing mind. So ordinary, so close, we miss it. So it seems to me.

But the upshot for my practice has been to take many everyday opportunities to become aware of this habitual mind and its ways. This "be here and now" kind of practice, or concentration practice, can be useful for this, IMO.

_/|\_
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby TigerDuck on Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:32 pm

What is the meaning of just this?

If that is not known, be here and now is meaningless.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby Dan74 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:32 pm

TigerDuck wrote:What is the meaning of just this?

If that is not known, be here and now is meaningless.


I don't think so. There are many things that fall short of seeing into this that are not meaningless. Even MBSR is not meaningless - it can reduce suffering and make practice more feasible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby TigerDuck on Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:13 am

Without knowing 'just this', basically the practice of be here and now becomes like a practice of new age.

Surely there are advantages and disadvantages on it, but it won't go far.

We can't assume 'be here and now' will eventually lead to enlightenment, because it is not.

We can't assume 'those practice jhana' will eventually realise 'just this', because it is not. Just look at Hinduism.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby Dan74 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:48 pm

It's a strange thing to say. No one advocated practicing "be here and now" in whatever form on its own. And yet it may lead to enlightenment. If we just practice it, taking this as this, neither add nor take away, like the Buddha's advice to Bahiya, then it may lead to enlightenment, if it's the right practice for one.

The point I tried to make was that in my experience it was a useful practice. Provisionally, of course. I'm just a beginner and don't talk in absolutes.

_/|\_
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:38 am

[james] wrote:Is there any reality other than ordinary mind?

If it takes 100 years (ok, maybe 50 if you have that many left) for you to become clear on this point, I'll claim that it will be supremely worthwhile.

Thank me in a future life, no hurry,

--Joe
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby Seeker242 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:39 pm

"Third, seeking nothing. People of this world are deluded. They’re always longing for something-always, in a word, seeking. But the wise wake up. They choose reason over custom. They fix their minds on the sublime and let their bodies change with the seasons. All phenomena are empty. They contain nothing worth desiring. Calamity forever alternates with Prosperity! To dwell in the three realms is to dwell in a burning house. To have a body is to suffer. Does anyone with a body know peace? Those who understand this detach themselves from all that exists and stop Imagining or seeking anything. The sutras say, "To seek is to suffer. To seek nothing is bliss." When you seek nothing, you’re on the Path."
~BODHIDHARMA, Outline of Practice

"Be here now, just this" is just a short way of saying the above. :)
Kill a cat, with a dried shit stick, under a cypress tree in the courtyard, while eating three pounds of flax! Only a cow goes Moooo!
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby bokki on Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:25 pm

well im sure u read this piece of wisdom, but i think its pertinent to here and now,lol
10 facts about you HERE NOW, JUST THIS
1. You r reading this
2. You realize its a stupid fact
4. You didnt notice i skipped three
5. You r checking now
6. You r smiling
7. You r still reading this though its stupid
9. You didnt realize i skipped eight
10. You r checking again
11. You r wondering how u fell for it again
12. You r Smiling
13. There should be only ten facts.
thnx seeker
b :heya:
Last edited by bokki on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby [james] on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:17 pm

No, I hadn't read this before.
I'm checking and smiling.
Thanks bokki
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby [james] on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:57 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
[james] wrote:Is there any reality other than ordinary mind?

If it takes 100 years (ok, maybe 50 if you have that many left) for you to become clear on this point, I'll claim that it will be supremely worthwhile.

Thank me in a future life, no hurry,

--Joe


I thank you always from the depth of this original ordinary heart, throughout the infinity of lifetimes.
Be well Jojo.
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby bokki on Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:16 pm

thank u very much , James :)

b :heya:
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby TigerDuck on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:58 am

bokki wrote:well im sure u read this piece of wisdom, but i think its pertinent to here and now,lol
10 facts about you HERE NOW, JUST THIS
1. You r reading this
2. You realize its a stupid fact
4. You didnt notice i skipped three
5. You r checking now
6. You r smiling
7. You r still reading this though its stupid
9. You didnt realize i skipped eight
10. You r checking again
11. You r wondering how u fell for it again
12. You r Smiling
13. There should be only ten facts.
thnx seeker
b :heya:


This is exactly what I have observed from how people in general understand the slogan 'Here now, just this'"

The realisation of 'just this' is understand as 'if I am smiling, I realise I am smiling.'

Without knowing 'just this', above is only what you can practise. It won't go far, and probably will hit you back someday.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby [james] on Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:30 am

TigerDuck wrote:This is exactly what I have observed from how people in general understand the slogan 'Here now, just this'"

The realisation of 'just this' is understand as 'if I am smiling, I realise I am smiling.'

Without knowing 'just this', above is only what you can practise. It won't go far, and probably will hit you back someday.


Perhaps 'just this' could be viewed as an approach that defines and supports a quality of practice necessary to realize anything, be it this or that. What do you think?

The realization of just this comes, not as a description of a 'reality', but as the realization that the nature of our practice itself is what 'just this' actually is.

Just this, as a description of practice, declares that it is a practice free of grasping or resistance. That it is permeated with the energies of patience, determination, courage and generosity and that these qualities support a strong and unfettered investigation into the true nature of being, and non-being.

When we are drifting along on a cloudy or sunshiney day we are able to return, because we have realized 'just this', to the practice and embodiment of just this.

Of course 'just this' doesn't have to be as I have described it above. That description happens to suit me. My point is that 'just this' is not something out there waiting to be engaged but is here within as our manner of engagement.
Last edited by [james] on Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby TigerDuck on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:15 am

In Zen there is this Koan - Mu.

If the practitioner is able to breakthrough this Mu, his perspective will change upside down.

With this new perspective/understanding, he will then 'be here and now'' in that understanding. This is where the progress will happen.

But if this Mu is not yet broken through, then what can you practice with this 'be here and now'? Are we happy with this kind of practice that when you smile you know you are smiling; when you wash a bowl, you know you are washing a bowl?

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby bokki on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:39 am

thank u very much :heya:
Hey TigerDuck, u r discriminating between realisation and right now, both of which are very fluid and ungraspable. But i see you point, and i agree. No need to know one is smiling, only smiling.. but knowing one is smiling, is also right now, as you have posted above about daydreaming.
What i wanted to say is that imo the ego mind creates an illusion of its existence that feels separate from the physical body, and environment. It thus cannot easily express what is happening right now, since it has its own word logic, which assumes its own illusory ideas as fixed measurements, and it creates within its dream its own etalon.
For example, the phone rings, you pick up, and you are asked "hey, what r u doing?", so u say, 4ex," cooking lunch". no, u r answering a question, or talking trough a phone.
Imo, that may not seem an important distinction, but it shows how the ego mind makes, trough words, its dreamlike existence.
Or the phone rings, and someone asks "hey, where are you?" u say "on the phone". No,you are "here". Or the phone rings, and someone asks "hey, where r u?", and u cleverly say "here", and ask back "where r u?", so he cleverly says "im here too!", so u ask "so u r here too?" and he says "yes".??... Its words that create divisive ideas, but words can point directly to the one mind, and can sometimes lead to direct recognition of the one mind. So the poison can be medicine, and medicine can turn into poison.
You see, words and mind create an illusion of separateness, and raise ideas of past, now, future, and practices and ideas just divide us from our selfs, imo. It should be easy to be honest about the moment, without forming ideas about here and now. Imo, it is probably very useful to practice being mindful of the here now, but ultimately it cannot be reached by the mind or senses, any more than you can control what your liver is doing now, or have to think how to move your legs while walking or your tongue when speaking.
let me not use my ego mind and words about quantum physics here..or scientific studies of brain functioning...
therefore, can u tell me what am i doing now? what r u doing now? where am i? where r you?
im sure it can b expressed. thank u 4 reading this blabber
b :heya:
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:00 pm

J.,

[james] wrote:I thank you always from the depth of this original ordinary heart, throughout the infinity of lifetimes.
Be well Jojo.

I'll say you're a good man, Charlie Brown. I hope I am, too, pretty good, sometimes. One can be consistent, but not necessarily to everyone's assessment. ;)
See you when and where it really counts (i.e., anytime). Promise... ! Just be sure to leave bread-crumbs. :Namaste:

--J.
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Re: BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:03 am

bokki wrote:BE HERE AND NOW, JUST THIS
I ,as anyone, heard this in zen, Buddhism, new age stuff, self help etc...


The past, present, future, are additions to perception, none of them have any reality, they are just concepts.
I often say to my mom (when she's going on about tomorrow and last week for over 30 minutes) can we please live in the "now"?
She laughs because she knows it drains my energy always listening to ppl who constantly think about what has been and what's ahead due to living in a loophole of desire and fear. When I say that I know what I say is ridiculous because at that very moment I'm only creating the 3 times :lol2:

But she understands the point, and I laugh innerly at the irony of what I said.
Those who truly are "in the now" never think about the "now" :heya:
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