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What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby [james] on Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:....
By the way, in light perhaps of what you say, Ven. Sheng Yen used to say that, after meditation, "do not immediately go to the bathroom" to empty the bladder. He'd say that there is "nutrition" there, which would be wasteful to void oneself of so quickly. Although I don't suppose his language was quite medically or scientifically sound, I trust (very deeply... ) that he was "on" to something real, and I supposed (but never quite tested, nor decided) that it is/was instead some energetic thing -- something proper to nerves and the nervous system -- and maybe not actually related to discrete chemicals in the body's wastewater and metabolic products carried in ...urine. Well, perhaps Guo Gu can shed more light on this minor point.
....


There is something irresistibly concentrating of mind and body in the unmet (whether by choice or circumstance) need to urinate ... bladder samadhi. Who hasn't been stuck in unmoving traffic with a full bladder? I remember an occasion when... well, never mind; the release at the end of it was euphoric, perhaps even ecstatic. I was definitely giving thanks to the universe.

There are many kinds of samadhi, not all equally conducive to awakening and liberation. Samadhi cultivation can be a game (or a pissing contest) and can lead to a strengthening rather than a dissolution of self view. The cultivation of samadhi is best kept in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path namely the samadhi of Right View, of Right Action, of Right Concentration etc.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Meido on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:52 pm

FWIW, and apropos of the above: because of the unconscious manner in which body/mind/breath are commonly engaged at the moment of releasing urine, it is one of those moments pointed out in oral instruction as particularly ripe for breakthrough, or at least to recognize the mind's capacity for clarity.

There are many others, for example the moment immediately after sneezing, the brief state experienced between wakefulness and sleep, the moment of suddenly stopping physical exertion, the moment after a shock or loud noise, etc.

Not exactly what Joe is referencing. But next time you pee...maybe...

~ Meido
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Roshi,

Meido wrote:Not exactly what Joe is referencing. But next time you pee...maybe...

Meido, thanks for even thinking of it.

As I wrote several times, this is a minor point, and was to indicate to our brother Mr. flutemaker / Ani that at least one teacher said one thing about something possibly "chemical" (actually, "energetic", I interpret it).

Granted, it was a long time ago (!) (1979 or 1980) that Ven. Sheng Yen made this statement in one of our 7-day Chan retreats, or lengthy Sunday sits and vegetarian-lunch practice gatherings (at the Ch'an Meditation Center in Queens). But I remember it accurately. Again, the gist was to "not immediately" go to the bathroom after coming out of meditation. How long to wait?: I forget. Did I ever heed this?: Yes, but without needing to heed it; there never seemed any urgency (I was a young whipper-snapper, age 27, and the prostate could probably do more push-ups than I could). ;)

Yesterday celebrated my ... 65th birthday.

I.e., I'm a Medicare deni-Zen, now (phew-w, made it in... alive). :tongueincheek:

Dunno if Shihfu was talking this way when you were with him, Meido.

Again, a "minor point", and seemingly blown-up here by some, I'd say: Interesting! Like "Inflation", in the Early Universe (Astrophysically-speaking, I mean). :lol2:

(maybe Rev. Jundo will begin a dedicated thread on it to debunk it six ways from 'sattoday', ...or, Sunday). :Namaste:

But, how "pee-ing" can take precedence in attention, by some, over our topic here of samadhi, is, well, ..."only-Human", I guess. :heya: Some Humans, in some states, bless their hearts (& etc.).

best rgds,

:Namaste:,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Kim on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:09 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:....
By the way, in light perhaps of what you say, Ven. Sheng Yen used to say that, after meditation, "do not immediately go to the bathroom" to empty the bladder. He'd say that there is "nutrition" there, which would be wasteful to void oneself of so quickly. Although I don't suppose his language was quite medically or scientifically sound, I trust (very deeply... ) that he was "on" to something real, and I supposed (but never quite tested, nor decided) that it is/was instead some energetic thing -- something proper to nerves and the nervous system -- and maybe not actually related to discrete chemicals in the body's wastewater and metabolic products carried in ...urine. Well, perhaps Guo Gu can shed more light on this minor point.
....


Nutrition from the liquids inside the bladder? Don't think so. Once an Indian saint adviced me not to touch things made of metal or walk on stone with bare feet after meditation because of the same reason. I followed his advice for some time but then started thinking and made some experiments. Seemed not to make any difference whatsoever. In a couple of zen monasteries in Japan where I trained the whole sangha used to go to toilet immediately after sitting periods.

But something that I've been thinking is the kidney and stomach problems hard core meditators often have. In my zen line stomach cancer has been big. In many other lineages folks start having kidney problems after mid age. It seems to be common. I think the best way to prevent this is not to sit too much but to utilise other body postures in training as well.

Meido wrote:FWIW, and apropos of the above: because of the unconscious manner in which body/mind/breath are commonly engaged at the moment of releasing urine, it is one of those moments pointed out in oral instruction as particularly ripe for breakthrough, or at least to recognize the mind's capacity for clarity.

There are many others, for example the moment immediately after sneezing, the brief state experienced between wakefulness and sleep, the moment of suddenly stopping physical exertion, the moment after a shock or loud noise, etc.


Getting distracted into subconscious during routines. You know that blank stare people have sometimes when eating? The eyes looking somewhere into distance while munching food. It makes a useful training, that I call distraction training, when we learn to go into that subconscious blank stare mode on purpose and from there switch the lights back on.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Meido on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:33 pm

Kim wrote:In my zen line stomach cancer has been big.


Something in Japanese culture to watch out for, as you likely know: habit of slurping down scalding hot soup and tea.

Kim wrote:You know that blank stare people have sometimes when eating? The eyes looking somewhere into distance while munching food.


I met one guy who likes to give folks a loud "HELLO" as they walk staring at their phones or the ground.

~ Meido
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby flutemaker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:34 pm

Meido wrote:
There are many others, for example the moment immediately after sneezing, the brief state experienced between wakefulness and sleep, the moment of suddenly stopping physical exertion, the moment after a shock or loud noise, etc.


I call them "moments of return" as usually there is a return from one mode of function to another. I have huge experience with regard to this. You seem to be the only one on the board, however, I would speak to about this matter. Historically it was related to prolonged sittings at night when return from almost falling into sleep was subject of my investigation.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:37 pm

hiya, Kim,

Kim wrote:Nutrition from the liquids inside the bladder? Don't think so.

My teacher was one who had little or no English. Love 'im!

"Nutrition" is not a bad word, overall: reading Sutras is good "nutrition" for our practice, at certain times. No?

Li' tha'.

You're on your own,

:Namaste:,

--Joe

p.s. Another deniZen more interested in peeing than in samadhi. Go figure. This is quite an unexpected education for me. I'll take it. Tnx. -J.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:40 pm

.
Meido wrote:I met one guy who likes to give folks a loud "HELLO" as they walk staring at their phones or the ground.

A Bodhisattva... .

:rbow:

--Joe
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby flutemaker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:41 pm

Jundo wrote:Yeah, but when a man's gotta pee, a man's gotta pee.

Gassho, J

But... I prefer to pee before sitting... to avoid this sort of urgency...
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Kim on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:43 pm

Meido wrote:
I met one guy who likes to give folks a loud "HELLO" as they walk staring at their phones or the ground.


I bet they love him. Lol.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Meido on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:58 pm

flutemaker wrote:I call them "moments of return" as usually there is a return from one mode of function to another. I have huge experience with regard to this. You seem to be the only one on the board, however, I would speak to about this matter. Historically it was related to prolonged sittings at night when return from almost falling into sleep was subject of my investigation.


I can get that.

My teachers talked a lot about these kinds of things in terms of how one can grasp what is meant by samadhi in a general sense...and how one may enter/sustain it. In the context of working with a practice method, that "moment of return" is what I would call "mindfulness" (smrti) i.e. the "remembering" to return, using the anchor of one's method. It removes obstructions and creates conditions conducive to awakening.

After awakening, this returning/sustaining is leavened so to speak by the recognition of one's nature, that is, it has the content of awakening. That is what for convenience we call the practice of Zen samadhi, post-kensho practice, etc. In has a function of dissolving habit energy and untying knots.

So in a nutshell that's the Rinzai path as I have been taught, and the role of samadhi within it:

1. Recognize one's nature immediately through various means.
2. If this does not happen due to obstructions, then cultivate samadhi in both stillness and activity in order to start working with and dissolving these.
3. Eventually one may enter an all-encompassing samadhi, the shattering of which leads to awakening.
4. After awakening, integrate/embody it as a seamless recognition. For this, samadhi is indispensable...so even if one did not need to cultivate samadhi before awakening, it will be necessary after.

Etc.

Of course this may not be useful to someone following a different path.

kim wrote:I bet they love him lol


I did not consider it skillful. I expect eventually he'll get run down and slugged.

~ Meido
Last edited by Meido on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:28 pm

M.,

Meido wrote:
desertwoodworker wrote:I bet they love him lol

I did not consider it skillful. I expect eventually he'll get run down and slugged.

No sir!, Meido, sir!

I, "desert_woodworker", did NOT write this.

It was one "kim" who wrote this (see above record!).

Please absolve me of all blame. You are mistaken, connecting me with this. Hell, it happens: :lol2: Please make good to undo the bad.

--Joe
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Meido on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:35 pm

Apologies, fixed!

~ Meido
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby bokki on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:18 pm

to pee or not to pee.that is the question. Shakespeer
:)

for me, the spontaneous functioning of bodymind has a particularly important role, and the recognition of such, in zen training, so that i find
FWIW, and apropos of the above: because of the unconscious manner in which body/mind/breath are commonly engaged at the moment of releasing urine, it is one of those moments pointed out in oral instruction as particularly ripe for breakthrough, or at least to recognize the mind's capacity for clarity.

There are many others, for example the moment immediately after sneezing, the brief state experienced between wakefulness and sleep, the moment of suddenly stopping physical exertion, the moment after a shock or loud noise, etc.

from Meido R very relevant and important!Thank You Meido Roshi.
b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby bokki on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:37 pm

and as forgetful as i am, and a day late
Joe
HAPPY BIRTH DAY, what a beautiful day, 65 and going strong :dance: :daisy: :ghug:
congratulations!
b
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burst into flames

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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby [james] on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:54 pm

flutemaker wrote:But... I prefer to pee before sitting... to avoid this sort of urgency...


Urgency is where it's at.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby partofit22 on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:50 pm

There is a scene in the movie Driving Miss Daisy (Jessica Tandy) where Hoke, her driver, (Morgan Freeman) tells her that he has to pull over to "make water"- In so many words she tells him, no, he will have to wait until they reach their destination- He obediently responds with a "Yes'm"- But no more than 30 seconds later says, "No, I am pulling over"-

Two responses, both appropriate-
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:08 pm

Happy Birthday Joe :hugs: :party: :Kite:

Welcome to Medicare! You're ahead of me in days, but I've got you beat with the years.... My BD today!

linda
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not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby bokki on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:33 pm

Linda, love u sooo much!!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
:hugs:
:hugs:
:hugs:
:daisy:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
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Re: What the blimmeny flip is Samadhi!?

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:34 pm

:heya:
:hugs:
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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