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All is change

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All is change

Postby eputkonen on Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:50 pm

I have been delving into "change" and here is something I thought I would share:

All is change...a flux and in-motion. Not accepting or resisting change is a primary cause of suffering and discontentment. I've found change has 5 facets that must also be accepted:

1) All is impermanent (can't hold onto anything)
2) All is uncertain (not knowing, no control)
3) All is interdependent (forms change, also all is relative)
4) All is timeless (not of past memory/future imagination)
5) All is impersonal (it's not about you)

Sometimes people can say they realize all is change...and yet take it personally...or overlook that change means not-knowing and uncertainty. I thought it was a good idea to try to figure out the various aspects or facets of change. Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?
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Re: All is change

Postby bokki on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:39 pm

glad 2 c u again.
ok, ill buy into this...
1) All is impermanent

change is permanent.and it has another name.
what is it called?
thnx eputkonen!
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Re: All is change

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:51 am

eputkonen wrote:Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?

You mean might have missed?

Maybe.

But all that's moot (see below).

If you are a Zen Buddhist practitioner, and if you practice correctly, then there's nothing you have to do by way of "accepting" those things you're concerned about. That's just frivolous worry, and is not on a true practitioner's plate or radar at all, because it simply does not arise.

But, note that true practice, and correct practice, is key in this. It cannot be substituted. It involves body and mind.

Approached intellectually and volitionally, in the way it seems you're trying to approach it, there will be and can be no good or lasting effects. In other words, that approach is ineffectual. That's why Zen Buddhists (and possibly other Buddhists, too), suggest that the way to go is through practice, instead. Correct practice. Your teacher will suggest (and exemplify) what this is.

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Re: All is change

Postby TigerDuck on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:15 am

I think unlimited.

All change is valueless or ordinary.

Example: = I give you shit = I give you gold = you give buddha shit = you give buddha gold.
All good karma you create = All bad karma you create = valueless = ordinary.

But, as practitioner, better watch out the last one due to our strong habit of duality.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

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Re: All is change

Postby jundo on Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:44 am

eputkonen wrote:I have been delving into "change" and here is something I thought I would share:

All is change...a flux and in-motion. Not accepting or resisting change is a primary cause of suffering and discontentment. I've found change has 5 facets that must also be accepted:

1) All is impermanent (can't hold onto anything)
2) All is uncertain (not knowing, no control)
3) All is interdependent (forms change, also all is relative)
4) All is timeless (not of past memory/future imagination)
5) All is impersonal (it's not about you)

Sometimes people can say they realize all is change...and yet take it personally...or overlook that change means not-knowing and uncertainty. I thought it was a good idea to try to figure out the various aspects or facets of change. Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?


Hi Eric,

I might offer this: There is a way to flow with all change that one truly becomes just the flowing, as if flowing with a river current without resistance and, beyond merely drifting along, becoming the the river itself. In Shikantaza, one sits as this very flowing. Go with the flow or, better said, Flow the Flow Flowing.

I might also offer that there is such beyond and right through all "change" or "changeless." I dare say something "permanent" as some of the Mahayana scriptures such as the Surangama Sutra do, but I believe this reeks of reification and eternalism ... two Buddhist no no's. I much prefer to say such Flowing Wholeness that such flows right though and as all "change" vs. "no change", "permanent" vs. "impermanent," birth and death, the whole and broken, all flowing or stillness too. It is a kind of Timeless that is all time and change. One sits Shikantaza timelessly flowing as such.

Gassho, J

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Re: All is change

Postby eputkonen on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:30 pm

TigerDuck wrote:I think unlimited.

All change is valueless or ordinary.

Example: = I give you shit = I give you gold = you give buddha shit = you give buddha gold.
All good karma you create = All bad karma you create = valueless = ordinary.

But, as practitioner, better watch out the last one due to our strong habit of duality.


Thank you.

I actually include "all change is valueless" within "all is impersonal". As value is a personalization (about me and others - value is in relation to someone). I suppose it kind of goes under "all change is interdependent" as well...value is relative.

I am attempting to distill it down, but I may have to split it out to include "all change is valueless."
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Re: All is change

Postby eputkonen on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:39 pm

bokki wrote:glad 2 c u again.
ok, ill buy into this...
1) All is impermanent

change is permanent.and it has another name.
what is it called?
thnx eputkonen!


How about you tell me?
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Re: All is change

Postby bokki on Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:01 pm

bokki wrote:
glad 2 c u again.
ok, ill buy into this...
1) All is impermanent

change is permanent.and it has another name.
what is it called?
thnx eputkonen!


How about you tell me?

LOL, iv already told you!

but, glad 2 c such questions! :heya:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: All is change

Postby [james] on Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:25 pm

eputkonen wrote:All is change...a flux and in-motion.
....
5) All is impersonal (it's not about you)

Sometimes people can say they realize all is change...and yet take it personally...or overlook that change means not-knowing and uncertainty. I thought it was a good idea to try to figure out the various aspects or facets of change. Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?


Flux and motion is how it is. Change is how we perceive it.
Flux and motion is impersonal. The perception of change is always personal.
The two can flow along together quite well.
Not knowing and uncertainty is basic. "Change" arises from the desire to know and be certain. Without this desire change would not be a problem. It would be a comfortable and fascinating perception.

In my opinion, of course.
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Re: All is change

Postby Caodemarte on Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:06 pm

I would not quarrel with these statements, but don't they just become another (even if temporarily helpful) view to be left?
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Re: All is change

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:52 pm

C.,

Caodemarte wrote:I would not quarrel with these statements, but don't they just become another (even if temporarily helpful) view to be left?

Exactly. Except my statements.

They may however be left, but nonetheless, they are ...right.

--Joe

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Re: All is change

Postby [james] on Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:54 pm

Caodemarte wrote:I would not quarrel with these statements, but don't they just become another (even if temporarily helpful) view to be left?

Temporarily helpful is temporarily helpful.
When entangling, let go of the entanglement.
There may be no end to views ... peaceful engagement of views is also helpful.
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Re: All is change

Postby TigerDuck on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:40 am

All change is self-released or self-liberation.

Because this fact is not seen, we still practise purification and antidote.
Because this fact is not seen, we still practise as if something can be gained.
Because this fact is not seen, we still practise as if there is something to be practiced.
Because this fact is not seen, we still feel I as if this I is not self-release.
Because this fact is not seen, we still see character as if fire has character of heat, there is a change or an unchanged.
Because this fact is not seen, we still the difference of Buddha and human as if there exists this special quality that doesn't self-release.
Because this fact is not seen, we think there is something to be discussed like permanent, impermanent, time, space, emptiness, etc.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: All is change

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:49 am

TD,

TigerDuck wrote:All change is self-released or self-liberation.

Explain, please. This is not fluent language. This is nonsense, above; but it may ring true if you could re-phrase it fluently.

--Joe
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Re: All is change

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:09 am

e-put-k,

eputkonen wrote:I am attempting to distill it down, but I may have to split it out to include "all change is valueless."

Split? No.

Spit it out.

Just as the poet says, "Spit out all bitterness". [Washington-State poet, David Wagoner, in "Staying Alive"].

You should (like to) know that the non-radical approach is not the Zen-Buddhist approach. The Zen-Buddhist approach gets at the ROOT, not the twigs and branches.

Hail!,

(although, ...this thread is in the "General Buddha Dharma" area. BUT, in terms of PRACTICE SCHOOLS, there IS no such-a thing as GENERAL BUDDHA DHARMA. So I'll assume you practice in no school at all, though you might want to claim otherwise; and that would be interesting, to see how your advertised twig-and-branch approach fits whichever school [definitely not Ch'an/Zen/Son/Thien, though]).

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: All is change

Postby TigerDuck on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:15 am

desert_woodworker wrote:TD,

TigerDuck wrote:All change is self-released or self-liberation.

Explain, please. This is not fluent language. This is nonsense, above; but it may ring true if you could re-phrase it fluently.

--Joe


Isn't a mountain is liberating itself every second?

On what ground then we can say that is a mountain?

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: All is change

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 am

hi,

TigerDuck wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:TD,
TigerDuck wrote:All change is self-released or self-liberation.

Explain, please. This is not fluent language. This is nonsense, above; but it may ring true if you could re-phrase it fluently.

--Joe

Isn't a mountain is liberating itself every second?

Yeah, I can't say that that is fluent. Too uncertain to touch it.

TigerDuck wrote:On what ground then we can say that is a mountain?

Sorry, can't commit because the question above is not fluent, and is unclear.

Just a technical snag of language, I see.

Maybe just don't say that anything is a mountain, and all is well. Even if it IS a mountain.

On the other hand (if one has another hand), no matter WHAT you say, ...all is well.

rgds,

--Joe

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Re: All is change

Postby TigerDuck on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:26 pm

Whatever is on-going process doesn't have Essence.

Whatever has no Essence, cannot have basis for naming.

We have no interest in social agreement in assuming the basis, what we interest is realising directly the groundless and be free from all social opinions.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: All is change

Postby Jok_Hae on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:33 pm

eputkonen wrote:I have been delving into "change" and here is something I thought I would share:

All is change...a flux and in-motion. Not accepting or resisting change is a primary cause of suffering and discontentment. I've found change has 5 facets that must also be accepted:

1) All is impermanent (can't hold onto anything)
2) All is uncertain (not knowing, no control)
3) All is interdependent (forms change, also all is relative)
4) All is timeless (not of past memory/future imagination)
5) All is impersonal (it's not about you)

Sometimes people can say they realize all is change...and yet take it personally...or overlook that change means not-knowing and uncertainty. I thought it was a good idea to try to figure out the various aspects or facets of change. Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?


One thing never changes. What is it?
:peace:
You make, you get

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