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Wu Wei

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Wu Wei

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:24 pm

After watching videos made by Tibetan Buddhists, I wonder :

Did Ch'an and Zen Buddhism integrate the concept of WuWei thanks to Taoism? Is there anything similar to WuWei in pre-Ch'an Buddhist sutras?
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:53 pm

hi, Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:After watching videos made by Tibetan Buddhists, I wonder :

Did Ch'an and Zen Buddhism integrate the concept of WuWei thanks to Taoism? Is there anything similar to WuWei in pre-Ch'an Buddhist sutras?

I think the fact of wu-wei is discovered in one's own behavior, when one is Awake.

So, if other Buddhist people are awake, or were ever awake, I'm pretty sure they must have discovered (naturally been made aware of... ) the fact of wu-wei, as a miraculous operating fact of living (different from the way 'living' felt before their awakening). But, maybe they never named it, nor spoke of it. Whereas, the Chinese did.

I think the influence of Taoism on Ch'an was strong, and probably vice-versa, after a bit.

As far as the sutras go, I'm not sure of a wu-wei-like principle appearing there, pre-Chan.

The Lotus Sutra stresses the development of Skillful Means, but I think that only the development of the skillful means is done intentionally, whereas the use of skillful means is expected to arise spontaneously, in the wu-wei -- "non-doing" -- non-effortful, nor willful, fashion, once you have the skillful means in the bag, all developed, and ready to dish-out as some need arises.

But I don't know the estimated date of said Lotus Sutra, nor the exact start-date of "Ch'an" (in China; we could say that Chan started in India, with Mahakasyapa... or, "one generation" earlier, with Shakyamuni himself, since he was able -- with his twirled flower -- in the famous Flower Sermon to transmit it [Ch'an-mind] wordlessly to Mahakasyapa... ).

Of course, one Indian fellow Bodhidharma brought the seed of Ch'an to China some, ...what?, ten or 11 centuries after the Buddha?

I think that the Sutra of Hue-Nung (the Sixth Ch'an Patriarch) is the only Chinese contribution in the entire Buddhist Canon (but that's a bit off-topic; yet, it's a really nice fact).

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:41 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
I think that the Sutra of Hue-Nung (the Sixth Ch'an Patriarch) is the only Chinese contribution in the entire Buddhist Canon (but that's a bit off-topic; yet, it's a really nice fact).


!!!????!!!? What? You mean stuff by HuangPo, MaTsu and other guys I forget, don't count?
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:59 pm

macdougdoug wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
I think that the Sutra of Hue-Nung (the Sixth Ch'an Patriarch) is the only Chinese contribution in the entire Buddhist Canon (but that's a bit off-topic; yet, it's a really nice fact).


!!!????!!!? What? You mean stuff by HuangPo, MaTsu and other guys I forget, don't count?


Hui Hai for instance, I dunno the rules when something is deemed canonial or not, perhaps other texts are not included in some official canon by official Buddhist bobos :lol2:
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:15 pm

hi again, Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
I think that the Sutra of Hue-Nung (the Sixth Ch'an Patriarch) is the only Chinese contribution in the entire Buddhist Canon (but that's a bit off-topic; yet, it's a really nice fact).

!!!????!!!? What? You mean stuff by HuangPo, MaTsu and other guys I forget, don't count?

Right. Their "records" are not Canonical. I.e., they are neither sutras nor shastras. The Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch is canonical.

Keep your shirt on, and take to heart what "canonical" means. It has rather a technical signification.

--Joe

ps Thus, Hui-Nung's SUTRA has rather a special place of honor in the Buddhist Canon: it is unique, being Chinese.
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:18 pm

Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:!!!????!!!? What? You mean stuff by HuangPo, MaTsu and other guys I forget, don't count?

They only count if you remember them.

Or forget them (but good to have known them, at least while one thinks one did). :tongueincheek:

--Joe
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:23 pm

See Joe, even in guessing I basically nailed it :PP:
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:26 pm

fuki, great seeing you,

fukasetsu wrote:See Joe, even in guessing I basically nailed it :PP:

You had it nailed, and even secured further with waterproof glue. Built to last.

--Joe
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:44 pm

:lol2:

Good to see you too, Sir.
Not a day goes by that I don't think about you and the inhabitants of ZFI, but I do miss the conversations at times.
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:50 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Right. Their "records" are not Canonical. I.e., they are neither sutras nor shastras. The Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch is canonical.

Keep your shirt on, and take to heart what "canonical" means. It has rather a technical signification.



Just spent some time online looking into this but had to give up. Theres the Pali Canon, the Chinese buddhist Canon, the Mahayana Sutras etc
Makes my head spin.
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:23 pm

Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:Theres the Pali Canon, the Chinese buddhist Canon, the Mahayana Sutras etc. Makes my head spin.

Yes, I sympathize. Maybe take a tablet of Dramamine next time out?

I posted this image in a thread before, but here' a good place to repeat it. This shows a copy of the Pali Canon (the Tripitaka), filling an entire dedicated cabinet-shelf. These are the oldest Buddhist scriptures extant, and are Theravadan.

--Joe

Tipitaka1.jpg
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:52 am

I hope the dust has settled, regarding this. :Namaste:

There's Canonical, and then there's everything else.

It's all part of what can help to save all Beings. Rest assured. Celebrate!, having these resources, for self and others.

Hail!,

--Joe

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Re: Wu Wei

Postby macdougdoug on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:51 am

desert_woodworker wrote:I hope the dust has settled, regarding this.


Possibly but the original post was about the concept of wuwei.

The Tibetan buddhists seem to say : if you concentrate on doing this stuff and learning about this stuff, and analysing this other stuff, you'll eventually get the mega prize.
Whereas the zen buddhists seem to say : just sit ( don't worry about the goal, if you feel so inclined you can maybe even wonder who's sitting or even if there is a sitter sitting.)
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Doug, et al.,

On the topic of wu-wei, as a principle, and as a reality, here is a selection from the Introduction to Victor Sogen Hori's ZEN SAND. There's more on this in his Introduction, but here is a goodly bit:

Hori_2003_wu-wei.jpg

On the next page (p. 57) is this brief related bit in summary:

"...the ability to communicate mind-to-mind without language depends on first having mastered words and language."

The full 100-page Introduction is available free online as a PDF file (link kindly provided here a few days ago by Meido):

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/201 ... uction.pdf

--Joe
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby TTT on Mon May 01, 2017 9:39 am

macdougdoug wrote:After watching videos made by Tibetan Buddhists, I wonder :

Did Ch'an and Zen Buddhism integrate the concept of WuWei thanks to Taoism? Is there anything similar to WuWei in pre-Ch'an Buddhist sutras?


I think that one can have interest in no - violens, or what ever you call it, even if you are not familier with chines.

Thank that wuwei means more than that. like vegeteriani, etc. Giving back the fich to tha sea, is that included?

Hmm, now i see on the net that it means non - actiona.
That s what you learan for trusting mother to much,,heh!

In Tibeten, i am not a scholor but can try direct you a bit. You can look in the Rigpa Shedra wikipedia i guess?
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

or maybe here,

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... ng_nirvana

:Namaste:
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby organizational on Mon May 01, 2017 11:05 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Doug, et al.,

On the topic of wu-wei, as a principle, and as a reality, here is a selection from the Introduction to Victor Sogen Hori's ZEN SAND. There's more on this in his Introduction, but here is a goodly bit:

Hori_2003_wu-wei.jpg

On the next page (p. 57) is this brief related bit in summary:

"...the ability to communicate mind-to-mind withhout language depends on first having mastered words and language."

The full 100-page Introduction is available free online as a PDF file (link kindly provided here a few days ago by Meido):

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/201 ... uction.pdf

--Joe



Thanks for the sharing.
There it says:
:one who acts effortlessly without deliberation and conscious intention.

so could we say this;
one who acts effortlessly without consideration,
same?
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 01, 2017 12:12 pm

org'l,

organizational wrote:There it says:
:one who acts effortlessly without deliberation and conscious intention.

so could we say this;
one who acts effortlessly without consideration,
same?

I would not change any words, no, nor shorten the author's description. Let the original suffice. :Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Wu Wei

Postby organizational on Mon May 01, 2017 12:22 pm

:Namaste:
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