Welcome admin !

It is currently Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 pm
Pathway:  Board index General Buddhist Discussion General Buddha Dharma

Enlightenment is not good!

For discussion of Buddha Dharma, including teachings common to all Buddhist schools, such as the Four Noble Truths, Dependent Origination, etc., that is not specific to Mahayana or Therevada

Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:03 pm

Hello

In Gods name

I don't know what you think i have of experience with Buddhism or religion at all. But in fact, it is all i used to do until i got burned-out. For reals. I grew up with E-Sanga and were there alot, i asked alot of questions and sometimes they got replies and other times there was only comfort to get. I was very restless, very, and maybe thats why i think enlightement is not good, now from my "calmer" point of view.

In Zen, they say that your mind has to be active all the time and never rest. Isn't enlightenment rest? My imam says that your mind has to be active all the time too! I shouldn't get enlightened. In fact there is no other way in this life, i got to be a bodhisattva. To not be a bodhisattva and accept that i am a normal person is to resign to the misery and and not eleveate yourself above it, the misery, and the Devas and join the Buddhas in Nirvana. Your only rest at this rate, is death. IF there is no rebrith.

But if i don't want to become a Bodhisattva or even a normal person, then what do i become? Its blocked. Life is really a suffering. I mean, how can one be satisfied with not being a KING? I don't think that Buddha lied when he said that Buddhism (and religion) is sweet from beginning to end. ... In Shia Islam, we say: "NEver to humiliation". And we have our sangha. Our group. Our nation. In our old ways. To accept the modern ways as your King is to deny that you are king and one who rejects humiliation.

As such you can wonder about the position of Desert Woodwoorker and his (modern) System. Which he bows his ass to. His secular view. Non Buddhist view. He gets humilitaed to so much that he wants someone to play guardian over and in turn humiliate them. Belive it, i blong here more than he do. And two tigers can't rule over one mountain. And if you get attacked in a den (of evil), it is your fault and noone is to blame.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:28 pm

Mentally ill, like Aspies, are much life criminals in behavious, i believe aswel as heard once. To be a Bodhisattva is to challenge the status quo. It is to become either criminal or mentally ill (Aspie). Like Buddha says that truth will set you free, it is unlikely that you want to die and have had enough, therefore you deside that you want to be a criminal and thus a bodhisattva. You won't get Asperger diagnosis. You have to work for it. Throughout your life. Truth sets you free, if your repeat it, the truth.

Or...

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby anka on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:49 pm

Hi lunarious,

Thanks for the post and topic minus the jab at Desert, that's uncalled for. You said enlightenment is rest, how did you come to this conclusion?

A zen master in the Kwan Um school had an interesting dharma talk on enlightenment. I will give a rough quote based on what I remember.

"Do you know why enlightenment stories almost always end at the moment of enlightenment? That is because after enlightenment is quite boring, the person goes back to their daily lives dealing with work, family, friends, anger, fear, happiness, etc... basically they return to their normal life."

They pointed to enlightenment not being a consistent state but a moment or two when everything lines up and you see through to the original nature. Even mentioned that many people achieve this in their lives but do not recognize it as enlightenment.

A different Zen Master in the school talked about feeling stressed and allowing their thoughts to run away slightly when they were stuck in traffic on the way to a dharma talk in Boston. The typical "I am going to be late. What will people think of me. Will I even be able to find parking when I get there." The difference is she was able to quickly recognise this and revert to focusing on breath to break the cycle.

So I guess it comes down to what exactly is enlightenment?
Last edited by anka on Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
anka
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:08 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:09 am

Hi anka

Because you're in Nirvana - The flames of desire are extinguished and you rest. Desire being the craving you get after observation and reflection which is not a natural want.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby anka on Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:28 am

Hi lunarious,

Enlightenment and Nirvana are two different things yes? In you first post you relate enlightenment to rest and now you say nirvana is rest.

Are you viewing them as equals?
anka
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:08 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:55 am

Luna, self-grasping is "not good", and when there's a view of self then others come into being, like desertJoe, so it's all you, your delusion. Whenever I have moments (thoughts) of self-grasping it kills itself on the spot and that's it, it's done.
It might arise later but I don't grant it any attention, to you everything is about you, and that's the whole issue.
There's no one here to be free of desire, desire is not personal unless you make it so because you have a self-image, that's when you suffer when there's an fabricated "I" behind the desire or enlightenment, there's no such thing in reality, so don't take yourself so seriously.
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7249
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:42 am

Strange title... .

Enlightenment -- or the awakened state -- is the natural condition.

Zen Master Dogen, among others, taught this fact, and taught how to realize it (attain it).

If one is not awakened, it's because things are not yet natural, for the being. This is why and where correct practice comes in.

Correct practice in Zen Buddhism is always learned in-person, face-to-face with your teacher, and practiced with the sangha around that teacher in order to deepen it and make it as correct as possible.

Awakening (realizing true nature) can be the start of a new life, and practice changes at that point, and afterward.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7040
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:06 am

How do i make Desert visible again? I totally don't agree. With you. But i apologize if i've hurt you. Godwilling i've learnt something.

Peace

PS: In Buddhism nothing is strange. Its all empty. Don't you know? Even your system is not all so good. Better to be feee under tribal rule.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:15 pm

The purpose of Zen Buddhist practice is to universalize the experience of Shakyamuni Buddha under the Bodhi tree, when he suddenly awoke upon seeing the morning star. That is, the Buddha's experience can be had by all.

The practice of other Buddhist schools, taken closely to heart, is said to be able to result in this, too.

Zen Buddhist practice (with teacher and sangha), however, is radical, in the best sense. It gets at the root of suffering. And, Zen Buddhism -- as different from other Buddhist schools -- is said to be a special transmission of mind, not dependent on words and letters.

Each practitioner's practice -- under guidance, correction, and encouragement by a thoroughgoing master -- can result in bringing one suddenly to a state in which one can (and does) intuit the Dharma afresh, quite as the Buddha did. It is not necessary -- nor efficacious -- to be front-loaded with doctrine and philosophy. Correct practice is key.

Unlike in the three religions of the Middle East, there is no basis whatsoever upon a "book". The basis is Awakening. Awakening comes only of correct practice.

The word "Enlightenment" is not used. "Awakening" is the proper word. The Buddha said he is awake.

"Buddha" means awakened-one, one who is awake.

"Enlightenment" is a mistaken translation.

May True Dharma continue,

Hail!

:Namaste:,

and a healthy, happy new year All.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7040
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:58 pm

Well, awakening is not good and one should strive to 1. enlightenment (knowledge) and 2. power.
Sounds like 1. birds with baked clay and 2. elephants, like the other thread about belief in my comment.
Of course enlightenment is birds, as birds are believers. The elephants by their size and quantity (big children) force the believers to not be Dove/Owl, instead shoving them to the right as Eagles /Parrots.

The 4 A's of disc:
Eagle: Achievement (physical power and intimidation until submission)
Parrot: Appreciation (big noisy talker, overloads you with BS)
Extrovert

Owl: Accuracy (knowledge, good wisdom is the highest virtue)
Dove: Peace (compassion is probably the next highest).
Introvert

http://takeflightlearning.com/assets/im ... e-DISC.jpg
https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinkn ... 4834ce.png

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:02 pm

Zowie. Somebody is hitting the Aquavit there already. Happy New Year. Be safe,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7040
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:46 am

Both Hinduism and Buddhism are right about rebirth. Those who guard against Allah and evil are not reborn (like Pure Land) and disbelievers keep getting reincarnated. There is no eternal self but there is an eternal soul.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:47 pm

L.,

Lunarious1987 wrote:Both Hinduism and Buddhism are right about rebirth.

If this is not your experience, then what makes you say this?

Lunarious1987 wrote:Those who guard against Allah and evil are not reborn (like Pure Land) and disbelievers keep getting reincarnated.

If this is not your experience, then what makes you say this?

Lunarious1987 wrote:There is no eternal self but there is an eternal soul.

If this is not your experience, then what makes you say this?

The 14th Dalai Lama, who is living today, is said to be the 14th incarnation. The Dalai Lama is said to keep coming back in order to teach true Dharma to help sentient beings. As a bodhisattva, he is not interested in not being born, but is devoted to helping beings to awake to the true Dharma, and true nature. Whether he has been reborn or not is not as interesting as the fact that he is, indeed, helping beings, and he has done so for a long time in his life as a Tibetan Buddhist lama.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7040
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby babybuddha on Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:27 pm

Can't use enlightenment as firewood to keep me warm.

Thinking about enlightenment keeps me from a good night of sleep.

That darn enlightment is blocking my view of the snow flakes coming down.

Need to cook some enlightened miso soup now because I am getting hungry.
babybuddha
 
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby Lunarious1987 on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:32 am

Desert, because ist says so in the Quran.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:37 pm

Lunarious1987 wrote:Desert, because ist says so in the Quran.

"It" says so?? (What is "it"?).

BTW, there's nothing about Hinduism or Buddhism in the book you mention.

Hail!, Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara -- Chenrezig -- and the Dalai Lama, fourteen times born and still going strong (even in exile).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7040
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby oryoki on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:59 pm

Lunarious1987 wrote:
Desert, because ist says so in the Quran.


About Quran from http://www.faithfreedom.org/ffiprologue/ :
b) An unbiased study of the Quran shows that far from being a “miracle”, that book is a hoax. The Quran is replete with mistakes– scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors, contradictions and ethical fallacies. Could possibly the author of this Universe be as ignorant as it appears to be in the Quran?


More on : http://www.faithfreedom.org/ffiprologue/
User avatar
oryoki
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby [james] on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:08 pm

About Quran from http://www blah blah blah
b) An unbiased study of the Quran shows that ...


The article you reference is not about the Quran but about xenophobia, paranoia and ignorance.
Not to mention bad grammar.
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby oryoki on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:43 pm

Unfortunately the author of the article is not stated there. However a simple look at the section “columnist” of the website, and it would become clear, that many contributors are not native English speakers, so I would excuse the “bad grammar”. Many are also ex-Muslims so “ignorance” of Quran is out of place also. As far as “xenophobia” is concerned, which is defined as a “fear of foreigners or strangers”, that accusation is out of place also, if the author of the article is perhaps also ex-Muslim. The article simply criticizes the ideology by which Muslim terrorist justify their murders.
User avatar
oryoki
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Re: Enlightenment is not good!

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:24 pm

I think the key thing(s) to reply to in this thread are that Lun. shows that he knows nothing of the nature of awakening in Zen Buddhism or in Buddhist practice in general. And, that he thus also thinks there is, afterward, someone remaining who will have "knowledge", as he says, and "power".

Not so.

To wit, he writes:

Lunarious1987 wrote:Well, awakening is not good and one should strive to 1. enlightenment (knowledge) and 2. power.

As I and others have written, correct practice is medicine, and is to enable a practitioner to see (awake to) true nature, and one's true nature. Simultaneously with this comes the spontaneous free operation of natural and true Wisdom, and true Compassion, which were previously covered-up by views of a "self", and by other false views, habits, and impurities. This true Wisdom and true Compassion arise in response (seamless... ) to circumstances just as they arise.

Such is Buddhadharma, and true Nature, and how they differ from wrong notions of other people who "meditate" for knowledge, riches, and "power". Those things are for a greedy, acquisitive, false "self", and are not for awakening.

We can't and don't blame Lun. for latching on to false ideas, but he should not claim that such glaring errors have any connection whatsoever with Buddhism. Again, no blame: false views are there to be disowned and replaced, through study, practice, and with help from a genuine Buddhist teacher and true Dharma friends (if one is interested; it's entirely optional).

Meanwhile, as ever, among those who happen to know better, Lun. does not get to declaim anything about Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, or awakening; but I'd repeat that, if he does try to, we must forgive his blunders. No blame. The innocently ignorant are not solely responsible for a number of the errors they make. Those who know better also know better not to badmouth the poor chap beyond the limits of what the TOU condones.

It's well also, however, to keep in mind that free-speech, where it applies geographically, is insured between a government and its citizens, and it does NOT necessarily apply in private circles. This is what justifies the placement of, for example, the TOU, and the imposition of the requirement to agree to the TOU in order to become a posting member of ZFI, or other fora, and to remain a member provided one does not stray afoul of the TOU.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7040
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Next

Return to General Buddha Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest