Welcome admin !

It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:51 am
Pathway:  Board index General Buddhist Discussion General Buddha Dharma

The problem of the subconscious

For discussion of Buddha Dharma, including teachings common to all Buddhist schools, such as the Four Noble Truths, Dependent Origination, etc., that is not specific to Mahayana or Therevada

The problem of the subconscious

Postby TonyD on Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:18 pm

Hi there,

Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Gassho
TonyD
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby Avisitor on Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:49 pm

I have often thought that people use the words or ideas about a subconscious as an excuse for not doing what is needed
I have been wrong before and probably very wrong again
But, I will blame that on my subconscious ... :tee:
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
User avatar
Avisitor
 
Posts: 1697
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:43 pm

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:55 pm

T.,

TonyD wrote:Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

I'd say that having ANY model of "mind" can cause problems, yes. Better to clutch no models.

(unless you marry a super-model, I mean). :tongueincheek:

Key is to practice correctly, under guidance. Then, whatever comes up can be worked-with, very competently. Not to worry, in advance -- just be sure you have guidance of a true teacher, so that all worry and anxiety can be laid aside, and practice can proceed.

best,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7228
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby david on Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:37 am

Hi. I dont think buddhism deals with the subconcious mind at all well.

Here is an interesting article on the subject...

http://www.realmindfulness.com/the-subconscious-mind/
david
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:22 am

TonyD wrote:Hi there,

Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Gassho


Not really, with proper practise that murky stuff will emerge. But to uproot the vasanas one needs to realize it off the cushion, that is in daily live, Buddhism is so much more then "meditation"
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:51 am

TonyD wrote:Hi there,

Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Gassho


Very good question! No worries about being clueless, everybody is. It just depends. I am on the side that practice is not enough and it takes too long. I have seen enough in sangha that is problematic... just scratch a bit and often you'll get a reaction that you hadn't planned on. I'd suggest that you walk on both sides of that street. Also, recognize that it's quite individual... trust yourself. At the end of the day, conscious and subconscious are all of mind... when the water is still there is the possibility of seeing more.

best wishes...
linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3876
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby TonyD on Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:20 pm

Thanks, everyone. Linda, I am curious, what do you mean by walking both sides of the street?
TonyD
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:41 am

TonyD wrote: Linda, I am curious, what do you mean by walking both sides of the street?


I'm suggesting that practice and working with our conscious/unconscious patters are both useful at times. Insight can make room for wisdom.

linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3876
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:54 pm

TonyD
TonyD wrote: How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind?


Helo TonyD,
The brain does a lot more than think. For instance, the autonomic nervous system is the part of the nervous system responsible for control of those bodily functions that are not consciously directed, such as breathing, the heartbeat, and the digestive processes among others. Whatever goes on in our sub-conscious mind [if such a thing even exists] is irrelevant.
In zazen we are only concerned with the brain’s “thinking” function – the conscious mental activity.
As long as that fades away we will get the benefits of the practice.
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:28 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Buddhism is so much more then "meditation"...

I agree enthusiastically, and also celebrate the fact.

In Zen Buddhism, as you know, I've been enjoying calling Zazen "the indispensable one-thirteenth part of Zen Buddhist practice".

(it may actually be a little larger or smaller than that). ;)

In other words,

Necessary!, but insufficient.

Caveat, too, is -- if it's to be zazen -- one must learn it and refine it with teacher and sangha, to be sure. Accept no substitutes, but the real thing.

(pitching a message to the Choir, again). ;)

:Namaste:,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7228
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:(pitching a message to the Choir, again). ;)


I'll take the red button :tongueincheek:
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:34 pm

Hello TonyD,
If you choose not to go to a teacher just Google “zazen”.

Here is a taster from Wikipedia:

“Zazen is considered the heart of Japanese Soto Zen Buddhist practice. The aim of zazen is just sitting, that is, suspending all judgmental thinking and letting words, ideas, images and thoughts pass by without getting involved in them.”

In other words, "abstain from conscious mental activity".

Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby Seeker242 on Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:54 pm

TonyD wrote:Hi there,

Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Gassho


For most people, it causes problems everyday! If it wasn't for that stuff, we would not need things like precepts, etc. But if you meditate regularly each day, all that stuff is eventually uncovered. And with enough practice, that uncovered quality becomes a 24/7 thing.
Kill a cat, with a dried shit stick, under a cypress tree in the courtyard, while eating three pounds of flax! Only a cow goes Moooo!
User avatar
Seeker242
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:49 pm
Location: Florida

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby dennis on Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:32 pm

TonyD wrote:Hi there,

Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Gassho


Your subconscious mind is YOU.
Your subconscious mind holds all your memories...everything. This is where your thoughts arise and "unconscious" decisions are decided.
Your conscious mind arises to interface with your subconscious mind and the world around you. Your conscious mind can only attend to one (?) thing at a time and is slow compared to your SC.
Below the level of your subconscious mind is your instinctive mind and below that your autonomic mind/nervous system.
To "know" your subconscious mind takes practice.

The above is my speculation.
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:37 am

TonyD wrote:Hi there,

Okay, this proves that I am actually clueless about Buddhism. How does Buddhism deal with the subconscious mind, especially the hidden nasty, negative, egocentric urges and desires that may lurk there? Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Gassho



Hello TonyD.

I will quote some poem to explain what i hold true in this context.

Yamaguchi Sodo (1642-1716)

In my hut this spring,
There is nothing –
There is everything!



It is open to interpratation.

:Namaste:
When
TTT
 
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 8:38 am

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby TigerDuck on Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:20 pm

Some masters called this subsconcious mind simply as undercurrent thoughts, which are movements of thoughts too subtle to detect.

However, it doesn't mean they are undetectable in normal activity.

If your awareness habit has improved significantly, all of those subsconcious thoughts will be detected even when you speak with other people.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
User avatar
TigerDuck
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:38 am

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:40 pm

dennis wrote:Your subconscious mind is YOU.


Depends on what you mean with "YOU"

Anyways, the only thing worth contemplating is the source of consciousness, and that source is what I'd call one's true nature, not the manifested (consciousness, waking, dreaming, sleeping) the subconscious, the unconscious, which are just names given, is also in the realm of consciousness, it's just a matter (as Tiger said) of where attention is focussed.

All consciousness is movement, only in 'non-movement' will the source be revealed.
So no philosophy or psychology is sufficient to make one realize what it actually is that makes one conscious.

Consciousness is play, nothing to get too serious about, especially not philosophically.
In any case things are never the way we think they are.

Joe made an excellent observation when he said;
I'd say that having ANY model of "mind" can cause problems, yes. Better to clutch no models.
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby HePo on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:13 pm

TigerDuck wrote:Some masters called this subsconcious mind simply as undercurrent thoughts, which are movements of thoughts too subtle to detect.

Could you give an example of a Zen master (an oldie) who talked about the subsconcious mind?
HePo
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:45 pm

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby TigerDuck on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:37 pm

I don't remember who they are.

However, this subsconcious issue is not specific to just one tradition. It exists in many traditions, even in Theravada.

In Theravada, this subsconcious is normally access through Jhana. When you practise further, you become more and more aware of very subtle thoughts. And when you go to sleep, this well trained awareness will make you aware with any night thoughts (dreams) that are going to occur. You will realise that actually there is no difference between sleeping and non sleeping, because you can aware all the time. Ajahn Chah talked about this in 'Food for the Heart', if I am not wrong.

It is something logical. If you practice awareness, you will see many thoughts happening in your mind. Over the time, your sensitivity and ability to see very fine thoughts will also increase.

You have to practice then you will understand.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
User avatar
TigerDuck
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:38 am

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:45 pm

TigerDuck wrote: If you practice awareness, you will see many thoughts happening in your mind. Over the time, your sensitivity and ability to see very fine thoughts will also increase.

You have to practice then you will understand.


It's funny, I always smile when someone says "I sometimes am thoughtless" or "I obstain from mental activity" which is crazy, the "mind" by nature is restless, alway moving, there's no such thing as a still mind, that is just words and spiritual jargon, there are always thoughts even when one is not aware of them, but what is it to me? I am not that 'mind' so it's none of my business. When there is pure stillness, there is no mind, for in reality there is no such thing as mind.

ah goads,tricky stuff for literalists. :lol2:
Everyone for President!
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Next

Return to General Buddha Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron
 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests