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The problem of the subconscious

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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:49 pm

hi, Dennis,

Happy Father's Day!

dennis wrote:So my thought was to stay between the button and Nirvana, and choose to be, if not a Buddhist Bodhisattva then just a Bodhisattva.

What do you think of this Joe? Does this sound practical?

If you're interested in Zen Buddhism as a path, I think that without proper teaching from a Zen Buddhist teacher, and correct practice with a Zen Buddhist sangha (as well as at home), one will not come to know either what a "Buddhist Bodhisattva" or a (generic? unspecified? undefined?) "Bodhisattva" is. Those words are just ideas, and non-practitioners naturally fill them in with guessed-meanings. Without practice, one is guessing in the dark about what they are about.

Only practice can illuminate or open a window on true nature, and hence upon what a Bodhisattva's stance with respect to it is, and can be.

As for Master Thich Nhat Hanh's statement, note that he is talking about the source:

"The source of love is deep within us... "

It is also the source of true Wisdom (prajna) and true Compassion (karuna). The source is just covered-up, covered over, and it can be uncovered, as Shakyamuni Buddha himself discovered. The Zen Buddhist program is exactly to universalize the awakening of the Buddha. Make it available to all... . It (Zen Buddhist practice) is a medicine for rapid re-establishment of our original human inheritances.

dennis wrote:Or perhaps this is not Zen? If not please disregard. I might replace "love" with
Compassion and Wisdom; I understood your comment, I believe.

True wisdom and true compassion arise in a practitioner from emptiness when there is no mind, and no sense of separation between beings. So, no, I would not replace compassion and wisdom with love, nor vice versa. Anyway, it's good to see a teacher about these things. Happily, teachers and sanghas are easier than ever to find, if you have yet to begin practicing.

best!,

--Joe
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby dennis on Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:59 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:hi, Dennis,

Happy Father's Day!

dennis wrote:So my thought was to stay between the button and Nirvana, and choose to be, if not a Buddhist Bodhisattva then just a Bodhisattva.

What do you think of this Joe? Does this sound practical?

If you're interested in Zen Buddhism as a path, I think that without proper teaching from a Zen Buddhist teacher, and correct practice with a Zen Buddhist sangha (as well as at home), one will not come to know either what a "Buddhist Bodhisattva" or a (generic? unspecified? undefined?) "Bodhisattva" is. Those words are just ideas, and non-practitioners naturally fill them in with guessed-meanings. Without practice, one is guessing in the dark about what they are about.

Only practice can illuminate or open a window on true nature, and hence upon what a Bodhisattva's stance with respect to it is, and can be.

As for Master Thich Nhat Hanh's statement, note that he is talking about the source:

"The source of love is deep within us... "

It is also the source of true Wisdom (prajna) and true Compassion (karuna). The source is just covered-up, covered over, and it can be uncovered, as Shakyamuni Buddha himself discovered. The Zen Buddhist program is exactly to universalize the awakening of the Buddha. Make it available to all... . It (Zen Buddhist practice) is a medicine for rapid re-establishment of our original human inheritances.

dennis wrote:Or perhaps this is not Zen? If not please disregard. I might replace "love" with
Compassion and Wisdom; I understood your comment, I believe.

True wisdom and true compassion arise in a practitioner from emptiness when there is no mind, and no sense of separation between beings. So, no, I would not replace compassion and wisdom with love, nor vice versa. Anyway, it's good to see a teacher about these things. Happily, teachers and sanghas are easier than ever to find, if you have yet to begin practicing.

best!,

--Joe


A Happy Father's Day to you also Joe.

You said:
"As for Master Thich Nhat Hanh's statement, note that he is talking about the source:

"The source of love is deep within us... "

It is also the source of true Wisdom (prajna) and true Compassion (karuna). The source is just covered-up, covered over, and it can be uncovered, as Shakyamuni Buddha himself discovered. The Zen Buddhist program is exactly to universalize the awakening of the Buddha. Make it available to all... . It (Zen Buddhist practice) is a medicine for rapid re-establishment of our original human inheritances."


I thought that was what I was talking about Joe. I hope I haven't committed some type
of insulting statement. The "indescribable" I felt I encountered, incredibly complex, always within me,
......"powerful" Yes but not "strong"...."speaking" Yes/no but no words or sound..."bright" ....????

yes, maybe, but not bright "light"... Perhaps, since I'm not good at describing the indescribable, I can just then say where/when
I believe I encountered/embraced/bowed (not bow.."in awe"?) before it's image/presence...(closer), perhaps instead say: the "center" of
your being. Although "center" is not correct for such, perhaps "abode"?

I suppose, despite my trying to be scrupulous, I can likely be describing some kind of happy "trance"
and taken this for something deeper. But it doesn't really feel that way. Maybe I'll just be quiet on
this subject for a while.

I don't feel I've found my True Nature (?) but an understanding/tool to better help me understand others
more deeply and to help them along their way, in a small way perhaps. What can be better than this Joe?

EDIT: To separate "bowed" and "(" and make more legible. Words; how I despise them.
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:36 pm

Dennis,

I didn't realize you had described some sort of experience, or wanted to discuss that; pardon.

I brought in some Zen Buddhist perspectives because at least these give us a common language, if we both practice, and have both been in Zen Buddhist practice circles for a while. Do I take it that you have a Zen Buddhist teacher and sangha? Or have, in the past? If not, then my generalizations may still be of some value, just as information.

Primarily, all I meant to do so far was to distinguish "love" and "true Compassion". If the distinction is unclear, it may become clear during formal Zen practice, and daily practice.

Your teacher, or a teacher here (in the "Ask A Teacher" area), can better answer more questions that may occur to you.

--Joe
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby dennis on Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Dennis,

I didn't realize you had described some sort of experience, or wanted to discuss that; pardon.

I brought in some Zen Buddhist perspectives because at least these give us a common language, if we both practice, and have both been in Zen Buddhist practice circles for a while. Do I take it that you have a Zen Buddhist teacher and sangha? Or have, in the past? If not, then my generalizations may still be of some value, just as information.

Primarily, all I meant to do so far was to distinguish "love" and "true Compassion". If the distinction is unclear, it may become clear during formal Zen practice, and daily practice.

Your teacher, or a teacher here (in the "Ask A Teacher" area), can better answer more questions that may occur to you.

--Joe


Good Joe, Happy Yoga Day.

You said: I didn't realize you had described some sort of experience, or wanted to discuss that; pardon. I certainly thought I would mention it. But I don't think I have any questions to ask...it was "kind-of" self explanatory. Certainly no pardon needed for my inability to explain.

I brought in some Zen Buddhist perspectives.... And your and everyone's perspective is honored and appreciated, including your generalizations. I fully understand you and I (and all respected others) often speak at different levels of understanding. Perhaps I'll confine myself to the Beginners Forum until I learn how to speak properly.

Your teacher, or a teacher here (in the "Ask A Teacher" area), can better answer more questions that may occur to you. Thank you very much for your comment Joe. If I had anything of substance to ask a Teacher I would do so. I used to think to bring trivialities to these very busy people previously but I've learned something about propriety? This last series of posts was, I'm sure due to the effects of pursuing a small question (too ardently) posed by Mr. fukasetsu" "Take a step back and observe instead of allowing that train of thoughts, on what does that very narrative depend?" So I did: I saw dark veils but continued to pursue the question...not with my oh-so-clever monkey mind...more like no mind. It was, at least for me, illuminating.

Good exercise for this feeble one; trust me. But learning goes on. I hope I haven't broken any rules in my pursuit. :rbow:
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby dennis on Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:41 am

P.S. Regarding the question posed by Mr. fukasetsu, I've since been learning something about "dependant arising" and that I believe is what Mr. fukasetsu was hoping I would understand. Many things begin to make more sense now. Thank you. :rbow:
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:42 pm

Tony,

(from the OP [Original Post] ) --

TonyD wrote:But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

Is there really a "subconscious"? Why do you believe so?

What would you suggest that "Buddhism" -- or any other path toward awakening -- do about this?

What have you yourself done about it?

You estimate it's "murky" (if it IS an "it"), and seem to suppose or question that it could cause problems. What clarity have you reached about this?

If none, how are you proceeding, and how will you proceed?

(I'm just interested. Perhaps as others are here).

tnx!,

--Joe
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby nomouthcrow on Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:28 am

The Buddha, in the early Buddhist texts, talks about unconscious thought patterns (before the arising of the Yogacara theories). Various terms are used for these unconscious or subconscious events, one is Anusaya ("latent bias," "predisposition", "latent disposition"), another is Asava (influxes, cankers), and also the fetters (samyojana) also seem to have some subconscious element.

Here is a good overview of the latent tendencies by Piya tan

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... .-piya.pdf

So basically the Buddhist tradition has been aware of sub/un conscious thought patterns since the beginning.

How does one deal with them? The cure is the cure we know about, the noble eightfold path, there is nothing specially pernicious about the unconscious other than the fact that we are often unaware of it. The trick is to stick to the path in the face of inner opposition, doubt, laziness, etc.
“A shooting star, a clouding of the sight, a lamp, An illusion, a drop of dew, a bubble, A dream, a lightning’s flash, a thunder cloud— This is the way one should see the conditioned.” ~ Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:35 pm

Tony,

TonyD wrote:Sure, you can meditate regularly for hours each day, and be completely aware all the time of what is going on in the conscious mind. But there is still the whole murky subconscious that is not readily visible or accessible during waking life. Could that cause a problem?

You say you may be "clueless" about Buddhism. "Sure", as you say, that may be so.

But let's discuss practice, which you call "meditation" above in the OP.

Now, in Zen Buddhist practice, for example, there is no explicit mention or treatment of putative different "departments" of mind (sub-conscious, conscious, etc.). They just don't enter (why give delusions a semblance of reality by featuring them?).

As far as such distinctions are concerned, I think Zen Buddhism and its practices treat them as yet further evidence of delusion.

In other words, they ignore such putative divisions -- because they are divisions made by the deluded, dualistic mind -- and they instead prescribe practices for body and mind, and allow them to do their work. Zazen, or what you may call "meditation" (?), is just one of about a baker's-dozen of such practices. Zazen is not a "stand-alone" practice.

When a practitioner sees original nature, and comes to inhabit or re-inhabit original mind, there are no divisions ...of any kind! Thus, there's no taint of what may have plagued a person while still in delusion. The decks are completely clear.

Of course, practice that results in awakening is best learned from a true teacher, and with a sangha (say, as a Zen Buddhist practitioner).

Tony, what you say above in the OP is a good caution. Without a good teacher and sangha, and correct practice, a person on one's own may indeed think he or she is "meditating for hours", as you say, etc., each day. But such practice is not necessarily Zen Buddhism, and can lead to, yes, as you say, "problems". For oneself and others.

Whether or not the problems have anything to do with a putative "sub-conscious" is a matter that genuine Zen Buddhist practice is not interested in. Zen Buddhism and its practices is only interested in a cure of any and all such delusions. Or is actually energetically engaged in effectively killing the delusive mind that makes such an invention, thinks it sees such a distinction, or creates such an entity (much as schizophrenics believe they see or hear others).

Stay safe,

--Joe
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby lobster on Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:47 am

nomouthcrow wrote:Here is a good overview of the latent tendencies by Piya tan

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... .-piya.pdf

So basically the Buddhist tradition has been aware of sub/un conscious thought patterns since the beginning.

How does one deal with them? The cure is the cure we know about, the noble eightfold path, there is nothing specially pernicious about the unconscious other than the fact that we are often unaware of it. The trick is to stick to the path in the face of inner opposition, doubt, laziness, etc.


Well said. :rbow:

I also feel there are tools and disciplines to become aware of ever more refined fetters/obstacles. Though in Truth as you mention, returning to basics is sufficient for most of us ... :peace:

The greater the clarity/transparency the more we can break group think and thunk, others subconscious motivations and be a good ol' Bodhi buddy :hugs:

The ideal may be to move like the silent :ninja: but cause an unforeseen stir :lool:

More ninjas, less head bands :>.>:
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:28 pm

The four main schemas of Buddhist psychology all have an implicit recognition of the pre-,sub-, or in-conscious. The Five Skandhas, The Twelve-fold Chain of Interdependent Origination, the Eighteen Dhatus, and the Eight Consciousnesses present the unconscious as part of the paradigm.
In the Five Skandhas the first four skandhas are to some degee either pre-conscious or unconscious
In the Twelve-fold Chain of Interdependent Origination, consciousness is only one of the links which makes the other eleven links more or less unconscious to some degree.
In the Eighteen Dhatus system, the Twelve Ayatanas or Entrances comprises of the Six Sensory Organs and the Six Sensory Dusts, or Data as we would say today, are the unconscious aspects of each of their Six Consciousnesses
In the Eight Consciousnesses, the 8th is the storehouse consciousness which is by definition the unconscious.

Each system is a way of looking at and describing mind from a perspective, as the blind men "looked" at and described the elephant. And in each system there is the recognition that mind has an unconscious aspect that we can give labels to, and in that way bring unconscious contents into consciousness, but beyond the labels, the functions that the labels point to remain unconscious functions that we only become conscious of with the activity of consciousness.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: The problem of the subconscious

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:34 pm

At best, there's no mind. At least among Zen Buddhists there isn't.

Yes, Yogacara cooks-up a nice model. We appreciate it. It aids in the answering of some beautiful philosophical questions, and allays some sticky doctrinal and philosophical problems. It's got little or nothing to do with the dawning of the faculty of true Wisdom, the opening of the heart of true Compassion, and the uncovering or restoration and free operation of all our original Human inheritances.

So the answer is still, in Zen Buddhist practice, no, a putative 'subconscious' does not enter as a consideration, nor does any model of "mind", in any pragmatic way. One practices with the sangha as one's teacher teaches and guides.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: The problem of the swithout ubconscious

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:41 am

desert_woodworker wrote:At best, there's no mind. At least among Zen Buddhists there isn't.

That medicine is as one-sided as the disease it is intended to treat. "Mind is Buddha" is just as accurate as "No mind, no Buddha."
Yes, Yogacara cooks-up a nice model. We appreciate it. It aids in the answering of some beautiful philosophical questions, and allays some sticky doctrinal and philosophical problems. It's got little or nothing to do with the dawning of the faculty of true Wisdom, the opening of the heart of true Compassion, and the uncovering or restoration and free operation of all our original Human inheritances.
No, yogacara has everything to do with practice. The "yoga" in yogacara means practice. It means don't get intellectual about emptiness because there is practice that needs to be done. That was Dogen's great koan about the need for practice. Yogacara in it's core is not about philosophical problems and is the treatment for philosophical problems for the purpose of steering people who are entangled up in philosophical problems like "emptiness" back to practice, true wisdom, and compassion.
So the answer is still, in Zen Buddhist practice, no, a putative 'subconscious' does not enter as a consideration, nor does any model of "mind", in any pragmatic way. One practices with the sangha as one's teacher teaches and guides.

:Namaste:,
--Joe

So in Zen Buddhist practice, the question of consciousness does enter directly as a consideration. There is no practice without turning the light around, whether we call it according to the words of Dogen or Linji, and having an orientation to what "turning the light around" means is having a model of mind in a directly pragmatic way. A teacher who has no map of mind is a poor teacher indeed.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: The problem of the tubconscious

Postby lobster on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:04 am

[youtube]https://youtu.be/OjOsOB4erZI[/youtube]

I likes a map ... found the above one on youtube ... Is there another? It does not seem to work ... :heya:
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