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bad speech

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bad speech

Postby littletsu on Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:41 pm

Complaining about people in general, saying bad things about a particular person - are they the same?
Gossiping and complaining about someone seems to have quite a huge social drive, if we watch carefully, we can often
see how a doomed conversation or awkward silence is being "saved" by starting to complain about somebody. It is basically
a meeting point for us. So it's hard to give it up.
It's very difficult to not say bad things about others at all, it is so subtly vowen into the ways we express ourselves. Making claims about ourselves (I can do this, I am like this, I do it this way, etc.) often already implies that we are better in comparison to
this or that person. It is like this elusive self needs to feed on these comparisons...otherwise?
We also often hide our gossip and complain into stories of what has happened to us, all those people who are responsible
for my suffering or discomfort are not named or specified, because they were just a decoration on the stage of my "persecution", but isn't that the same thing?

Of course it is a lot easier to notice other people making the mistake (the subtle ones), but complaints and the sort have a very
strong pre-taste, if we look carefully, they actually announce themselves in due time. So when the feeling is caught, one can
pause and take more care what one says, and what are the feelings behind the words. Someone wrote here on the forum once "if you don't know how you are feeling, look at what you are doing" - I think it's a very useful tip. Why commenting negatively
on others all the time when there isn't even a tangible use of it in the present situation? Where does this need come from?

I find it is easier avoiding a train of complaint, as it has a particular taste and form. Those subtle remarks are a different cake.
How do you "deal" with those? What other threads tie into this?

Have a nice day,
L.
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Re: bad speech

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:07 pm

Discrimination is essential to being human.

It would seem to me that you value the disciminatory process of another over your own if you listen to something that does not resonate with you, such as gossip. You think the other person holds more power over you than you. It's not true and you're basically giving away your own power on the basis of that belief, that's why you feel bad. You're leaking.

I would be interested in hearing what other people have to say about dealing w/ such situations.

Why not just change the subject and talk about something that interests you? That's fun.

Or you can walk out of the room, change friends, ignore the other person and start becoming really interested in those flowers outside :daisy:
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Re: bad speech

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:36 pm

littletsu wrote:Complaining about people in general, saying bad things about a particular person - are they the same?

Pretty much in the way that they both stem from one's own ignorance, it applies to saying good things about a person too, it's both driven by politics, it serves the speaker.

Why commenting negatively
on others all the time when there isn't even a tangible use of it in the present situation? Where does this need come from?

Well something's lacking right? (or at least it feels that way for that one) in the same way one can have the need to 'complete' oneself in sex, drugs or whatever. Basically it all comes from the fabrication of a personality by which automatically one thinks there are other personalities, seperation is erroneously perceived so it's logical we need those so called 'others' for the good and the bad, just habitual ignorance. It's an omnipresent phenomena.

How do you "deal" with those?

I dont embrace the good or avoid the bad, at least not from attachment, it pretty much depends on the situation and circumstance, in any case however I deal or don't deal happens spontaneously, there's no strategy or analysis involved, nor do I beat myself up over mistakes, just observing and learning, there's always room for improvement in my behaviour.

In any case there are no others, it merely says something about the speaker, and eventhough they might be oblivious to it for the moment, there's always the chance for learning, so the good and the bad speech are both a blessing, if one learns to see it that way. Don't try to alter what happens due to your own attachment, just observe and stick to your own principles and experiences. Just set the right example by not doing it yourself, no use to preach to others what they should or should not do, or dwell on the function of it (bad speech)
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Re: bad speech

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:55 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
littletsu wrote:Complaining about people in general, saying bad things about a particular person - are they the same?
Pretty much in the way that they both stem from one's own ignorance, it applies to saying good things about a person too, it's both driven by politics, it serves the speaker.


That's good, no? :) if it serves the speaker. Why would you define a good thing as "stemming from ignorance"?

fukasetsu wrote:Well something's lacking right? (or at least it feels that way for that one) in the same way one can have the need to 'complete' oneself in sex, drugs or whatever. Basically it all comes from the fabrication of a personality by which automatically one thinks there are other personalities, seperation is erroneously perceived so it's logical we need those so called 'others' for the good and the bad, just habitual ignorance. It's an omnipresent phenomena.


What's separation? Is that a bad feeling? What if the feeling is good, is that also separation?

Similar questions :)
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Re: bad speech

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:08 pm

Chrisd wrote:That's good, no? :) if it serves the speaker. Why would you define a good thing as "stemming from ignorance"?

In selfless service there is no notion of good and bad, in the context of lil'etsus examples (especially the subtle part) the example of talking bad is done to make oneself feel better, saying good things about others in your own agenda/service to make yourself feel better (or whatever strategy involved) amounts to the same. Things aren't often as they seem, talking good isn't always good, talking bad isn't always bad, it depends on the motive. If talking good about others involves the same strategy as talking bad, they ofcourse both stem from ignorance, eventhough it may appear otherwise due to the jacket. Don't judge a book by its cover eh? That applies to good looking and good smelling books to, always check the motive.

What's separation? Is that a bad feeling? What if the feeling is good, is that also separation?

Seperation [the notion of] comes from erroneous perception, or not seeing things as they are. I'm not speaking of form and appearance, I'm speaking about perception, any self-view is false, if you have a self-view you also have views on others, ofcourse they do not accord with reality. Views change as the weather, that itself is enough proof of it's unreality.

If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. ;)
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Re: bad speech

Postby partofit22 on Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:35 am

I think its frequently a self reflection, when anyone calls someone something, they see themselves in someone else. My pet peeve/s people who act like they never had a bad day in their life, dont dmit they are wrong but frequently correct others and people who dont apologize. Also people who stomp off in a huff because someone disagrees with them or the sources and stats they present. Ugh!
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Re: bad speech

Postby lobster on Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:35 am

littletsu wrote:Complaining about people in general, saying bad things about a particular person - are they the same?


It is a question of discernment and independence/non attachment.

All too often in my experience, we are drawn into trivial and harsh behavour when finding ways to not engage is the more skilful option.

I would suggest complaining and gossip come from a similar karmic source.
We develop more choices over behaviour/karmic patterns, through developing discernment and equinimity.

To transform negative tendencies is for all of us an ongoing process. :Namaste:
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Re: bad speech

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:42 am

Nothing "bad" is said.

People are "encouraged", if a person knows what one is doing, in the activity.

The one hearing or reading has an awesome responsibility, however. There can be no "guarantees".

Ego --and ignorance -- usually prevail, alas!, over better/best sense. However, hearers are often blind. ;)

And preaching is no substitute for... CORRECT PRACTICE ! By the other party... .

This explains everything.

yours,

--Joe
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Re: bad speech

Postby partofit22 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:07 am

When someone calls someone an asshole (or other derogatory things) it isn't a question- As a rule, it's a reflection- And when one does this repeatedly it isn't practicing skillful communication -- in other words, it's bad speech-
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Re: bad speech

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:31 am

Bad-seeming though it may be, in any case, chances are, it may be a "match". In that case, WHAT?

IN THAT CASE, ...what? Say... what? Attend... .

No lead-poisoning here, BTW. But, we had a similar change of water resource. It was disastrous to many home pipes, but not poisonous.

Flint's "lead-poisoning" is only one-third the insult of what it was in the 1970s, when gasoline contained tetra-ethyl-Lead, and paint was mainly lead oxides, which kids ate from peeling walls. Kids then registered 20 parts per million Lead. Now -- yesterday -- they have ("only") 7 parts lead, per million. Gimmee a break, please. This is a media slur.

Flint now has 7 parts per million Lead in a glass of water. In 1970, Flint had 20 parts per million in the same un-leaded non-crystal wine-glass. Tell me what has deteriorated. This is a media smoke-screen, for what?, I don't know, and a spook-story. Stay tuned. Stay clear. Balogna!

Meanwhile, I'm selling (filtered-) water by the river. Why not. Who wouldn't?

Our desert river is bone dry sand. For now. We fish there for fictitious "Sand-Trout". Never caught one.

--Joe
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Re: bad speech

Postby partofit22 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:33 pm

A reflection, a match, a likeness- Things seen, recognized- Yes- But calling one out, out of one side of the mouth and not ones self out of the other as well, then no- Not a match at all- And is bad speech- Poison- Harmful- Like skinning a cat .. -- alive- When harsh words flow thru the wind pipe, damage is done- Period- Minimizing how much and to what might be oversight-
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Re: bad speech

Postby partofit22 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:50 pm

"My hair had a party" is gentle on the ears, the heart and mind- Not to mention clear- Making it easier to recognize, see a reflection, make a match-

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Re: bad speech

Postby littletsu on Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:20 pm

@All: thanks for the suggestions. Ok, I understand, there can be many stances on this according to one's "knowing their true nature"...but would you say there is no right application of the teaching of Right Speech? Apart from an all around "correct practice"? (The defining of which seems to have been up to debate here ever since.) .)
Is "Right Speech" one of those ambiguous "Hinayana" things, once taken from a Mahayana point of view?

@Joe: what activity do you mean?
"People are "encouraged", if a person knows what one is doing, in the activity."
I am afraid I am having difficulties understanding you here...would you mind rephrasing it with a more simple language?
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Re: bad speech

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:50 pm

littletsu wrote:but would you say there is no right application of the teaching of Right Speech?


Sure there is...depending on the situation :lol2:
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Re: bad speech

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:20 pm

partofit22 wrote:A reflection, a match, a likeness- Things seen, recognized- Yes- But calling one out, out of one side of the mouth and not ones self out of the other as well, then no- Not a match at all- And is bad speech- Poison- Harmful- Like skinning a cat .. -- alive- When harsh words flow thru the wind pipe, damage is done- Period- Minimizing how much and to what might be oversight-


Bad speech (in your example) isn't all that bad, the problem is one's attachment to memory.
Because we remember someone saying 'bad' things to us in the past, we can no longer when meeting that same person today have a communication as if we never met that person before. So it's already tainted, things usually get bad due to such attachments. Root of the matter is that if you consider yourself a person you will see other persons everywhere, this seperation phantasy causes one to mistake behaviour for a person. Among the wisest you will observe that eventhough they might say something regarding uncivil behaviour, but such ones will upon meeting the same person the next time start afresh, while among the ignorant, unawakened, etc, they will react from emotional reactivity due to memory attachments.

The cat example made me shiver in sadness since I immediately fabricated a vision of it,
can't you do human examples next time, I have no attachments there :PP:
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Re: bad speech

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:26 pm

littletsu wrote:@Joe: what activity do you mean?
"People are "encouraged", if a person knows what one is doing, in the activity."
I am afraid I am having difficulties understanding you here...would you mind rephrasing it with a more simple language?

Yes, thanks; of course. The "activity" is the dual phenomenon of speaking-hearing. In that activity, people can be encouraged. They might become discouraged, but if that's noted, the speaker can change tone, or change course, to have more closely the intended or necessary influence.

I realize that this is very general, perhaps vague, speech. I hope it helps.

--Joe
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Re: bad speech

Postby partofit22 on Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:33 am

fukasetsu wrote:
partofit22 wrote:A reflection, a match, a likeness- Things seen, recognized- Yes- But calling one out, out of one side of the mouth and not ones self out of the other as well, then no- Not a match at all- And is bad speech- Poison- Harmful- Like skinning a cat .. -- alive- When harsh words flow thru the wind pipe, damage is done- Period- Minimizing how much and to what might be oversight-


Bad speech (in your example) isn't all that bad, the problem is one's attachment to memory.
Because we remember someone saying 'bad' things to us in the past, we can no longer when meeting that same person today have a communication as if we never met that person before. So it's already tainted, things usually get bad due to such attachments. Root of the matter is that if you consider yourself a person you will see other persons everywhere, this seperation phantasy causes one to mistake behaviour for a person. Among the wisest you will observe that eventhough they might say something regarding uncivil behaviour, but such ones will upon meeting the same person the next time start afresh, while among the ignorant, unawakened, etc, they will react from emotional reactivity due to memory attachments.

The cat example made me shiver in sadness since I immediately fabricated a vision of it,
can't you do human examples next time, I have no attachments there :PP:


Memory may very well be part of the problem although not solely for the listener, the speaker of harsh words is no less responsible than the listener in any conversation- And while many can start fresh after an unpleasant encounter they don't do so without considering what took place previously but the continued conversation can change the way in which memories, unpleasant or otherwise, are viewed-

Sometimes people go to any length to get what they desire and use cats to do so -- figuratively or literally- Who isn't guilty of that?

More than one way to skin a cat

There are many versions of this proverb, which suggests there are always several ways to do something. Charles Kingsley used one old British form in Westward Ho! in 1855: “there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with cream”. Other versions include “there are more ways of killing a cat than by choking it with butter”, and “there are more ways of killing a dog than choking him with pudding”. The earliest version appears as far back as 1678, in the second edition of John Ray’s collection of English proverbs, in which he gives it as “there are more ways to kill a dog than hanging”.

Mark Twain used your version in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court in 1889: “she was wise, subtle, and knew more than one way to skin a cat”, that is, more than one way to get what she wanted. An earlier appearance is in ’Way down East; or, Portraitures of Yankee Life by Seba Smith of about 1854: “This is a money digging world of ours; and, as it is said, ‘there are more ways than one to skin a cat,’ so are there more ways than one of digging for money”. From the way he writes, the author clearly knew this to be a well-known existing proverbial saying.

Writers have pointed to its use in the southern states of the US in reference to the catfish, often abbreviated to cat, a fish that is indeed usually skinned in preparing it for eating. However, it looks very much from the multiple versions of the saying, their wide distribution and their age, that this is just a local application of the proverb.

The version more than one way to skin a cat seems to have nothing directly to do with the American English term to skin a cat, which is to perform a gymnastic exercise that involves passing the feet and legs between the arms while hanging by the hands from a horizontal bar. That name may have been suggested by the action of turning an animal’s skin inside out as part of the process of removing it from the body.



http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mor1.htm
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Re: bad speech

Postby lobster on Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:52 am

'Bad speech' covers anything by Donald Chump, the well known presidential mis-speak aunty-anti-blonde-ha!-devolved-simian or to put it more kindly [insert Noble Silence of choice] :grr:

On a more laughable/serious note ... :blush:

Good speech is what the ignorant refer to as 'understood' and the zeniths as [insert tongue of choice] :blah:
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Re: bad speech

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:14 pm

partofit22 wrote:And while many can start fresh after an unpleasant encounter they don't do so without considering what took place previously but the continued conversation can change the way in which memories, unpleasant or otherwise, are viewed-

Sometimes people go to any length to get what they desire and use cats to do so -- figuratively or literally- Who isn't guilty of that?


In other words, memory is a good servant but a bad master. :)

Thanks for explaning the cat proverb, I wasn't aware of its existence, figuratively.
I still say it's a nasty proverb, there are other ways to say the same thing without using cat skinning or choking a cat with butter.
On the other hand any proverb beats boiling a lobster alive.
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Re: bad speech

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:22 pm

lobster wrote:'Bad speech' covers anything by Donald Chump, the well known presidential mis-speak aunty-anti-blonde-ha!-devolved-simian or to put it more kindly [insert Noble Silence of choice] :grr:


A lot of politicans (and civilians) think or say the same things and much worse off camera, at least he says them in the open.
Media is a strange phenomena in the states, it's either censored for no good reason or used to scapegoat individuals,
we love to hate don't we?

Mistaking behaviour for *bleeping* personalities again, silly Buddhists. :tongueincheek:
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