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Dojo jobs

Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Nonin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:12 pm

Hosei wrote:@unsui - briefly off topic but do you know of any groups near Copenhagen - I have friends in Helsingør I've been meaning to visit....

back on topic - we've also got a person who strikes the densho bell and does alternating roll-downs with the hand bell before ceremonies at our head temple.. but for the life of me I can't remember what they're called.. shosu? no.. um.. but something like that.

:-)

-hs

The person who strikes the densho and does other things in a Japanese temple is the "shoten." We use the same term at our temple, but what the person does along with ringing the bell is different from in Japan.

All these terms get shifted around, used differently, and confuse people in the West. If you practice in more than one place, you have to re-learn the terminology! That's also true in Japan when you go to a Soto temple from a Rinzai temple and vice-versa.

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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby unsui on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:38 pm

I've just checked "gyorin" in connection with our densho-discussion here and found out it is another word for the wooden fish, mokugyo. What fun!
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Nonin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Also, "densho bell" is redundant, for "sho" in this case means bell. I forgot what "den" in this case means.

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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby So-on Mann on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:54 am

Sorry, guys, I must correct you. The technical term for the person who hits the mokugyo is "bonker." Let's try and keep that straight. ;)
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Hosei on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:00 am

So-on Mann wrote:Sorry, guys, I must correct you. The technical term for the person who hits the mokugyo is "bonker." Let's try and keep that straight. ;)


lol ... are you sure? I thought it was whacker :-)

-hs
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Hosei on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:06 am

Nonin wrote:Also, "densho bell" is redundant, for "sho" in this case means bell. I forgot what "den" in this case means.


courtesy of the department of redundancy department :-)

Sweeping zen says den is 'hall' http://sweepingzen.com/densho/ .

:-)
-hs
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby unsui on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:38 am

Just reading a text where the fellow writes that he is "jisha", responsible for looking after the Zen-master, being the attendant, right-hand man and go-to guy. In our Rinzai dialect, this would be "inji".

Is "jisha" in its use here "Soto" for "inji"?
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Hosei on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:27 pm

unsui wrote:Just reading a text where the fellow writes that he is "jisha", responsible for looking after the Zen-master, being the attendant, right-hand man and go-to guy. In our Rinzai dialect, this would be "inji".

Is "jisha" in its use here "Soto" for "inji"?


well.. we don't often use "jisha" in our lot . We usually say "secretary" but their role is exactly that described above - when we do use jisha - it's for the two people carrying the bosses assorted incense to the altar - and one of them is the secretary :-)

:-)
-hs
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Nonin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:07 pm

Hosei wrote:
Nonin wrote:Also, "densho bell" is redundant, for "sho" in this case means bell. I forgot what "den" in this case means.


courtesy of the department of redundancy department :-)

Sweeping zen says den is 'hall' http://sweepingzen.com/densho/ .

:-)
-hs

Let me try to complicate things even more: Okay, but is that the "den" of "densho?" Usually denshos are in the hall in front of the Zendo in a traditional Japanese monastery or temple. I ask because there are many Chinese characters (also used by the Japanese) that are read as "den." One has to see the character to know which "den" it is.

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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby ed blanco on Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:26 pm

So-on Mann wrote:Sorry, guys, I must correct you. The technical term for the person who hits the mokugyo is "bonker." Let's try and keep that straight. ;)


Ha! That's me, a bonker, perfect handle. This mokuyo is so small I have to seriously focus, then recite in Japanese, a labor of love.

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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby unsui on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:11 pm

ed blanco wrote:
So-on Mann wrote:Sorry, guys, I must correct you. The technical term for the person who hits the mokugyo is "bonker." Let's try and keep that straight. ;)


Ha! That's me, a bonker, perfect handle. This mokuyo is so small I have to seriously focus, then recite in Japanese, a labor of love.

:O:

For a long time, we had this tiny frog as a transportable mokugyo. Bought it at the aquarium in Baltimore - and yes, we knew it wasn't for bonking but for shrpppping. We used it anyway in our travels, holding it up by the back legs in one hand, bonking it on the nose with the other. Had a fine sound, actually...

frog.jpg
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Jugglesaurus on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:41 am

That is a fantastic wooden thing!
I suggest "tokker" as the official mokugyo title. TOK, TOK, TOK, TOK, TOK
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby espeno on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:18 am

unsui wrote:
...

Ha! Tenzo! Soft? No way! :lol2:

...

:)
Well, going back to the shoji - for us that is the one doing person-related things outside the zendo and doing household things inside the zendo. So the shoji is also the one who organizes work sessions - no samu-guy here. I also found that at Mt. Baldy the shoji is responsible for who sits where in the zendo.
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Nonin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:20 pm

unsui wrote:
ed blanco wrote:
So-on Mann wrote:Sorry, guys, I must correct you. The technical term for the person who hits the mokugyo is "bonker." Let's try and keep that straight. ;)


Ha! That's me, a bonker, perfect handle. This mokuyo is so small I have to seriously focus, then recite in Japanese, a labor of love.

:O:

For a long time, we had this tiny frog as a transportable mokugyo. Bought it at the aquarium in Baltimore - and yes, we knew it wasn't for bonking but for shrpppping. We used it anyway in our travels, holding it up by the back legs in one hand, bonking it on the nose with the other. Had a fine sound, actually...

frog.jpg

In Korean temples, they use small hand-held mokugos. I don't know what they call them, but they're shaped just like the large floor models. I've whacked them a couple of times when at a Korean temple. They have a lovely sound, and like the big ones, each one puts out a slightly different sound. I love all forms of the music we use in Zen Buddhist practice places, gongs, bells, mokugyos, chanting, the big wooden fish that hands high in Japanese temples and is struck with a long wooden staff (Does anyone know what this is called? I've forgotten.)

I especially like the melodic chanting done in Japanese monasteries. We do some here in Omaha. I also like the melodic chanting done at Shasta Abbey and their affiliates. It's a nice break from the monosyllabic stuff. In fact, 95% of our temple chanting is in English and follows English pronunciation patterns. We don't even have a mokugyo, large or small.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby ed blanco on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:00 pm

I've found this small group sitting only 3 miles from my house, this has been a wonderful Dharma gifts. Good kharma.
It's led by a Soto Zen priest who studied with Deshimaro-roshi.
He recites in heavy bass Japanese, which I've heard on Deshimaro-roshi's tapes. It's a treat form me although I am used to English. Trying to memorize the Heart Sutra in Japanese is turning our to be a daunting task. All else, Boddhisatva Vows, dedication of merits, is inJapanese as well.
The mokuyo is small, with a very plesant sound if hit at the meat of it. The wood on wood sound is sweet.
Trying to read Japanese and hitting it just right is my dojo job.

:O:
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby unsui on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:13 pm

Small Korean mokugyo = moktak (spelling?). Lovely sound!!!
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby Hosei on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:53 pm

ed blanco wrote:I've found this small group sitting only 3 miles from my house, this has been a wonderful Dharma gifts. Good kharma.
It's led by a Soto Zen priest who studied with Deshimaro-roshi.
He recites in heavy bass Japanese, which I've heard on Deshimaro-roshi's tapes. It's a treat form me although I am used to English. Trying to memorize the Heart Sutra in Japanese is turning our to be a daunting task. All else, Boddhisatva Vows, dedication of merits, is inJapanese as well.
The mokuyo is small, with a very plesant sound if hit at the meat of it. The wood on wood sound is sweet.
Trying to read Japanese and hitting it just right is my dojo job.

:O:


I think that's "Deshimaru" :-) well done finding a group - Where do you live out of curiosity? I may know your group leader !

@unsui - those little frog chirpers make AWESOME (and cheap) mokugyo alternatives - I know a couple of folks who have them - they're hollow so make a great sound

hey does anybody know if there's an official soto name for the person that runs round with the bell in the morning for wake up? we call them "wake up bell" - but that doesn't have a great 'ring' to it.. (so to speak) :-)

-hs
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Re: Dojo jobs

Postby unsui on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:08 pm

Hosei wrote:
ed blanco wrote:I've found this small group sitting only 3 miles from my house, this has been a wonderful Dharma gifts. Good kharma.
It's led by a Soto Zen priest who studied with Deshimaro-roshi.
He recites in heavy bass Japanese, which I've heard on Deshimaro-roshi's tapes. It's a treat form me although I am used to English. Trying to memorize the Heart Sutra in Japanese is turning our to be a daunting task. All else, Boddhisatva Vows, dedication of merits, is inJapanese as well.
The mokuyo is small, with a very plesant sound if hit at the meat of it. The wood on wood sound is sweet.
Trying to read Japanese and hitting it just right is my dojo job.

:O:


I think that's "Deshimaru" :-) well done finding a group - Where do you live out of curiosity? I may know your group leader !

@unsui - those little frog chirpers make AWESOME (and cheap) mokugyo alternatives - I know a couple of folks who have them - they're hollow so make a great sound

hey does anybody know if there's an official soto name for the person that runs round with the bell in the morning for wake up? we call them "wake up bell" - but that doesn't have a great 'ring' to it.. (so to speak) :-)

-hs

I don't know if this helps, but we call them the "shinrei" guys. We're of course not Soto! It would be one of the densuryos.

The first chirpers (thanks for the name!) we bought were painted very decoratively - maybe more suitable for Tibetan temples than Rinzai. The paint got worn off the nose, though. Poor babies...
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