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Are we immoral?

Are we immoral?

Postby lobster on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:06 am

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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:40 am

They ranged from "very secular" countries such as China and the Netherlands


Haha, "we" don't even call ourselfs religious when we're religious, or non-religious when atheists, we (most of us) hate labels :heya:

I'm actually baffled why anyone could even think up such a study... "lets ask people if you think a murderer is more likely to be atheist" :lol2:

The study measured the attitudes of more than 3,000 people in 13 countries on five continents.

Meh, I don't consider asking 3000 people something a study, a study is collecting data through observation not by asking people something.
Also in my area ppl don't ask each other about their religion or lack of religion, so how could they even answer the question?

ps not amoral, I'll leave that to my uncle who is a lawyer :lol2:
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:11 pm

Better to speak for oneself.

Best is not to speak at all.

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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:21 pm

"Speech is blasphemy, silence a lie. Above speech and silence there is a way out." I-tuan

(when the universe is artificial) :tongueincheek:
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby lobster on Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:20 am

As the need for an expression and wisdom that encompasses non-study, AI enlightenment, wordless transmission, a post-zenith unfoldment, intuitive and quantum science etc etc, we have to wonder what dharma will bring to the table. Nothing? Again? :lool:

:daisy:

:O:

:p:
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:46 pm

:lol2:

Not much too offer Wobster, and I don't mean that in the zenny way :PP:
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:37 am

I'm not usually a fellow who is suspicious of others, but I have a suspicion that even people who profess to be "religious", and appear to be "observant" in their religion with their families, may actually be atheists, in that they can't (don't... ) believe in or can't conceive of something like a "God", yet they go through culturally-acceptable "motions", pretending to be on-board with something like a "god", or "God". Or, are "believers" at about the depth of the thickness of a candy-bar wrapper.

I'm also suspicious that men are more hypocritical in this way than are women, in the main.

I think the whole (Roman-Catholic) country of Italy is this way (though maybe some of the oldest women are truly actual sincere believers, plus maybe some small fraction of the professed Clergy).

Islam?, no, I won't touch Islam, here. I know my Sufi friends are on about something really good; but I have no optimistic info on other sects.

Generally, I think all the Middle-Eastern religions (Jud.; Christ.; Isl.) are washed-up, out-of-gas, and due for collapse, implosion, and happy replacement. Yes, cultural affiliations may remain, but I think actual "belief" in the figures and dictates of these traditions is soon to become beyond-the-pale, and unjustifiable by most people... even those who can muster an abundance of "faith" (in "something"). It will be very interesting indeed to see what is adopted or invented to replace them. Or, we're likely seeing the beginning of this already... .

It's still early-days. Be glad!, to be in on the start of things. And, give it a push, if you have the impulse. Current and future folks will thank you / us. And they already do, I note.

Things are looking "up", in Religion (and Astronomy). :tongueincheek:

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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby partofit22 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:38 am

I think people believe what they want to believe when it comes to Gods, to teachings, to seeing, to the use of statues, rituals, adornments and what they are used for-

When I lived in Mississippi I attended a bible study (Baptist) once a week for a couple of months- It was an all female group, the men had their own- One evening I asked a what I thought was a serious question pertaining to the chapter being read and the ladies, all of which were in the 70's or more, laughed- The woman who head the group removed her glasses, looked at me and said, "Hon, these are just stories, nothing more than food for thought .. and I was like Ohhhhhh ... It was such a relief to hear someone come straight out and say so -- but I didn't say so in case anyone else in the group believed differently-

When I attended Catholic church years ago I was totally into it providing I didn't buy into what I was told to believe because when I did try to believe what I was told to believe I knew for certain I was going straight to hell -- along with everyone else .. Aside from that, I enjoyed being my own kind of Catholic-
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:54 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Generally, I think all the Middle-Eastern religions (Jud.; Christ.; Isl.) are washed-up, out-of-gas, and due for collapse, implosion, and happy replacement. Yes, cultural affiliations may remain, but I think actual "belief" in the figures and dictates of these traditions is soon to become beyond-the-pale, and unjustifiable by most people... even those who can muster an abundance of "faith" (in "something"). It will be very interesting indeed to see what is adopted or invented to replace them. Or, we're likely seeing the beginning of this already... .


Whether things are allowed to die, are renewed or replaced depends on the rulers right?
Religion is installed to control people a good distraction for politicans and dictators to make folks believe it's about "the word of.." instead about power and control. There will always be countries or areas where dictators (whether in government or banking or whatever) aren't what they appear to be. Technology is the main reason ppl aren't as fixated as they used to be, then again what (they say) is invented to "free" us, is what in the end always enslaves the people (I sound like the unabomber now lol) When do people (in a general sense) ever choose to be religious or atheist? One cannot be atheist by choise, the concept only appeared due to there being the concept of Gods to begin with, the concept of being a human is also dependend on things like animals, trees etc. I'd say F it all, and stop dividing and locking up the world in a mental picture in the name of self-identification.

So I couldn't tell either way Joe, to me life is to live it, and anything else is a superimposition on that simple fact.
I'd be happy if all labeling all "I am this, I am that" dies foregood and is seen for the fabrication that it is.

ps 1849, red is katholic, green is protestant.
1849.PNG


2003..red is the orthodox bible belt left where secularisation is the slowest.
2003.png


I'm also suspicious that men are more hypocritical in this way than are women, in the main.

I'd say that men are more hypocritical in all ways, at least they make more effort into maintaining and protracting their house of cards.
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby TTT on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:48 am

Are you thinking of the Huginot war fukasetsu?

There was a war in Frans, 1600 - centuary, between the chatolik and the protestants, horrible war, chatolic won i think.
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:21 am

TTT wrote:Are you thinking of the Huginot war fukasetsu?

There was a war in Frans, 1600 - centuary, between the chatolik and the protestants, horrible war, chatolic won i think.


Actually I had no war in mind Triple, but I think it "ended" with the treaty of Vervins, the real end was only after the peace of Münster ending the 80 years war or the Dutch war of independence and the 30 years war simultaniously, pretty insane times. But if it's not the house of Habsburg, catholics or protestants then it's Napoleon (waterloo) and after that ofcourse some world wars, I'm happy to be alive in a time where at least in my country there's no insanity of war, there are no winners it seems.
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby TTT on Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:33 am

fukasetsu wrote:
TTT wrote:Are you thinking of the Huginot war fukasetsu?

There was a war in Frans, 1600 - centuary, between the chatolik and the protestants, horrible war, chatolic won i think.


Actually I had no war in mind Triple, but I think it "ended" with the treaty of Vervins, the real end was only after the peace of Münster ending the 80 years war or the Dutch war of independence and the 30 years war simultaniously, pretty insane times. But if it's not the house of Habsburg, catholics or protestants then it's Napoleon (waterloo) and after that ofcourse some world wars, I'm happy to be alive in a time where at least in my country there's no insanity of war, there are no winners it seems.


Intresting.

Yes,
i am glad to be alive here in this time where there is not so much war where i am. Buddha Dharma was not fluraching then, we have plage time s too and now life is free, we can chouse what ever we wont, we can pick partner after preferens, etc..

There is a somthing on this in the sanskrit language, "Kala" is present time, where i am at, now.

And, the life expectensy is better now, then in war times.
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:08 pm

TTT wrote:Yes,
i am glad to be alive here in this time where there is not so much war where i am. Buddha Dharma was not fluraching then, we have plage time s too and now life is free, we can chouse what ever we wont, we can pick partner after preferens, etc..

There is a somthing on this in the sanskrit language, "Kala" is present time, where i am at, now.


At least in our countries it is :)


If conditions are sufficient and at hand it is called sampatti. When conditions are deficient is called vipatti. Throughout samsara, in the course of numerous existences, every sentient being has done many deeds, kamma, accumulating countless mental impulsions (javana citta) which must produce effects in the future. They do not lie out and perish without results, but wait till suitable conditions arise for its working out in some future life time.

There are four conditions of sufficiency (sampatti), as well as four conditions of deficiency (vipatti), for all beings in samsara (their cycles of existences). In sampatti conditions kusala kamma has the opportunity to produce good results whereas in vipatti conditions akusala kamma plays a leading role in produce bad effects.

The Four Sampatti Conditions

Gati sampatti (being reborn in a good plane of existence)
Upadhi sampatti (having pleasant physical features)
Kala sampatti (being reborn at a suitable time)
Payoga sampatti (having means or instruments knowledge, diligence)

The Four Vipatti Conditions

Gati vipatti (being reborn in a woeful plane of existence)
Upadhi vipatti (having unpleasant physical features)
Kala vipatti (being reborn at unsuitable time)
Payoga vipatti (having no means of instruments knowledge, diligence)

Kala Sampati

The reign of noble, wise rulers is called kala sampati. Under the leadership of wise regents who care for the social welfare of the people, promoting their prosperity, health and education, kusala kamma results are opportune to take effect. Consequently the people enjoy a good life. They are free from worry and fear and live in tranquility. Such a period is kala sampatti. Such times, the past evil deeds which could result in poverty and famine cannot produce immediate effect. All forms of akusala have no chance to take action during the time of kala sampatti.

Kala Vipatti

The rule is incompetent wicked leaders is called kala vipati. Times of war and countrywide disorder are also called kala vipatti. At such times, akusala kamma is opportune to produce bad results. Consequently people suffer poverty and famine. Even those endowed with kusala kamma cannot enjoy their good results at such bad times. People live in catastrophe; the sick die for lack of medical care. Such are the evils of kala vipatti.

So I'd say we're under the "reign" of Kala Sampati :peace:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c3161.html
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby Spike on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:42 pm

.
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
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Re: Are we immoral?

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:57 pm

Spike wrote:http://imgur.com/lIuLT0z
:PP:



:lol2:

I don't think either are bestowed with self-deprecation Spike.
It's good medicine, thanks for the laugh I'd say they both look better this way, I think everything looks the best on them, I can guarantee it.
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