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in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:43 pm

Is the headline in a NY times article, written by SGP leader Kees van der Staaij (a political reformed party)

Im creating this topic for personal reasons so if I'm violating any zfi rules my apologies.

Im glad to live in the netherlands who was the first country to have an euthanasia law, to allow gays to marriage, where cannabis and prostitution is "legal" so on and so on.

I just want to share that this guy doesnt have much support here so is now seeking support in other countries relating to the euthanasia debate, which is just idiotic how could other countries pressure us to change liberal and compassionate laws?

So just a heads up that if you read something regarding euthanasia for humans (its perfectly fine for my pets)
in the netherlands it's written all for the agenda for this political party.
Whether anyone who reads this is pro or not is not my issue, the issue is hes trying to gain support through foreign media for something which is an internal matter for Dutch people.

The NY times article is the first but they are preparing similair articles for germany, france and others.
The NY times headline was a fabrication from the NY times themselves, but the article itself was written by him.
So dont grant it any attention please especially knowing how "hype" us media can be.

Ok thanks for reading :)
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby partofit22 on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:57 pm

Thank you and you're welcome-
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:13 am

How to value idealism? It’s essential, yet causes so many problems in society. I profess to getting very irritated by idealism. It’s usually promoted by parties that are not directly involved in the field they are making judgments on.

In this case there appears be an ignorance relating to euthanasia and people being treated for chronic ailments. As I interpret it, euthanasia is very common by default and has been common for many years. There most always comes a point when doctors decide that while further treatment may prolong the life of a cancer patient it is just delaying the inevitable. At that point pain control and basic sustenance and comfort is the only consideration. This applies to other conditions as well. I sense that there is an understanding among doctors that making these decisions at a given time is both justifiable and understandable.

Reality exposes similar situations involving animals. A cat gets hit by a car. Veterinary costs in this case can be as high as $1000. The owner has bills, the kids need shoes. Who should blame them for putting the cat down?

In my culture declining to kill an animal that is too badly injured to survive is pure cruelty. We learn to do it ourselves. On a geological field trip with my supervisor we came across a sheep that had fallen down a cliff. It had a broken back. I had no knife. I killed it with my geological hammer. It must have looked terribly violent but the sheep felt nothing.

There is a saying: “The road to disaster is littered with good intentions”.

Just my view

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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:00 am

Mike, this topic for me was about the fake news article,
The religious politician is trying to tell foreign media that people are killed here outside of the will of the patient,
which is absurd, they're just afraid because the laws are expanding (making it better for ppl who want to die)
but I have no answers all I can say is what I feel is my own birthright.

Which is to die when I want (I had an euthanasia form filled at the age of 18, so that's 22 years now)


Reality exposes similar situations involving animals. A cat gets hit by a car. Veterinary costs in this case can be as high as $1000. The owner has bills, the kids need shoes. Who should blame them for putting the cat down?

It's not about blaming nor would I have negative feelings towards anyone who puts whatever down,
but for myself, my cats are insured for 15 euro per cat per month, so they are covered for vet bills up to 5000 euros, my own health insurance is 120 euros per month. Last year I had to put my oldest cat down (at home and the vet let me do the final injection) but she wasn't insured and I payed 2000 euros that year due to vet bills.

If I didn't have the money it would be no issue, my kids would get food and clothes from other organisations, the vet would allow me to pay 50 euros per month until the bill was covered (with no interest) So I see our point but also not, if you dont have the money why get a cat?
I have friends on welfare, single moms who decide to get a 2nd or 3rd kid through the sperm bank, they have no money but they still do,
Do I condemn them, no. Would I do the same, no.

What I meant with the animal comment is what my own vet went through about 5 years ago, a german sheperd in perfect health came into the clinic and the man said I'm done with this dog he shits all over my carpet (because he didnt walk outside enough and the dog was stressed) so put him down. My vet didnt want to put the dog down but he decided to anyway because he knows if he doesnt do it the man will go to another vet and it would be done anyway. Five years later he still has emotional issues with this. But no political group or church has any problem with that, it's not news because it's only an animal. Yet people who have had euthanasia forms filled in years ago and are now meeting those criteria, then a bunch of religious groups protest against it. That's the inequality and absurdness of it, you can put an animal down when its healthy but a human who is suffering that's another story, why because of the word of god? Give me a break.

In my culture declining to kill an animal that is too badly injured to survive is pure cruelty. We learn to do it ourselves. On a geological field trip with my supervisor we came across a sheep that had fallen down a cliff. It had a broken back. I had no knife. I killed it with my geological hammer. It must have looked terribly violent but the sheep felt nothing.

I would have done the same, it's compassionate.
I am not against killing, killing is a part of what makes the earth spin.
I don't eat meat because of the bio-industry, not because a Buddha would tell me not to kill, I can make my own judgments just fine.
In another life and circumstance I could kill for food (human or animal) but with respect like the native indians did it,
I'm also very respectful when I remove the weeds from my mothers garden, I do it all by hand because I dont want to injure worms or other insects (since I dont eat them) My heart tells me to, it's not about defending views, but I believe its any humans right to die when they want.

A government should support people in their will, not govern their will, that would be slavery.
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:37 am

Fuki -

The decision to end one's own life is surely the ultimate right? The fact that it is still unlawful in so many countries is kind of weird. I don't understand this :blush:

About cats and killing: My house is wooden and rather old. In autumn rats and mice take up the prime real estate in walls and ceilings. It is horrible. Rat shit in pot cupboards, scurrying and chewing all night

I admit to setting out poison when really desperate but was really uncomfortable over this. They die slowly and often in walls stinking the place out. They get trap shy too.

I hadn't had cats for a few years but decided to get a couple of kittens. They are decedents of wild cats and really bush-wise. After 6 months no more rats and mice. So here I am setting one species against another resulting in violent death and sometimes torture :blush:

I am enjoying the cats though :) One is terrified when a stranger walks in. You'v had one like this?

Cheers

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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby partofit22 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:55 am

My first reaction to your article was knee jerk but accurate as the day is long: Oh, so now its ok to talk politics :lol2: But didnt say as much because it wasnt presented as a discussion- :) However, now it has become one-

If the news is correct, inequality is on the rise- But is this something we need the news to make us aware of? Isnt it ever present in daily life all around the globe? We've the choice to treat all creatures equally, or treat them as if more important or less- The loop is endless, it seems- Some see ending life as no regard for life and some see ending life as compassionate-

A small group of boys were together on the bank of a pond watching a man drown- They did nothing to save him- One of them took a video of him drowning on their cell phone-
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:04 am

Cheers Mike,

It is indeed pretty final, it's weird that it's unlawful wouldn't surprise me if one day a family member would have to go to court or pay a fine when a family member commits suicide, that would be beyond weird but a perhaps effective manipulative way (lets not give them any ideas)

I'm glad you got cats to do the job Mike, it's also not good for the rats to be overpopulated without predators nearby.
Perhaps if you'd have a 1000 killer cats roaming free you'd have to get a giant pet rat. :lol2:
I had pet rats when I lived with my mom about 8 of them which roamed the house freely, yet they pooped and peed in their designated aquarium but never in the house unlike your wild rats, they are very smart and great company too pet rats. But I was moving out and while I was fixing up my new house the rats remained with mom until I would pick them up but one of the rats ended up in the neighbours kitchen (who was terrified) so she set out poison, a few days later my mom called and told me about the news, so I rushed home and the poor thing took 2 minutes to die in my hand while waiting for me for days, I estimate it took him 4-5 days to die of the poison.

Yes one of my cats is very afraid of strangers but that's probably due to being abused by my ex, same situation me fixing up the new house for 3 weeks and 3 weeks later I discovered the abuse. You can understand I'm reluctant to leave my cats alone in someone elses care since then.
But I know a few cats who are afraid eventhough having no traumatic experience, they're all different.
But if your a calm person and ignore her she tends to sit a few meters away from you after a few visits, but people with high energy or loud voices she will never enter the room.

ps did you ever see the biographical movie "you don't know Jack" (2010 hbo) about Jack Kevorkian?
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:14 am

Yeah it's fine on a sunday :lol2:
Yes you're right we don't need the news for that at all, but yes this was kind of personal to me since it involved the country I was born in and some looney taking it abroad, which is a rarity. Hope it's not gonna be a new habit.

partofit22 wrote:A small group of boys were together on the bank of a pond watching a man drown- They did nothing to save him- One of them took a video of him drowning on their cell phone-


Wow, that's unreal, did the kids go to court?

Speaking of politics, I had you in mind when I watched the BBC2 program "Performance Live: Why It's Kicking Off Everywhere"
which is beautiful because several people take the stage as in a theatre and it goes from a Greek guy saying "fuck goldman sachs" to a syrian woman, and all around the globe explaining (in their view) why the world is the way it is (its inequality) it's a live performance where others can join in, it's like a revolution but not with guns but art. Do you have access to bbc channels? I saw it for the first time yesterday but apparently it's on frequently. I learned a lot from just one hour from ppl over the world from personal experience, instead of the normal way we get news through the media.

yesterday's episode is here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08zj2wq
but it can only be viewed from the UK, but there are tricks to get other IP's.
I have a US and Canadian one :lol2:
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:51 am

Fuki, I'll start with a few comments. I won't go into more since I have now moved for the weekend to house sitting for 3 doggies (Havanese) and some chickens in the redwoods .... sad to say, I don't like leaving my cat Dolly either. She is well cared for but..

Main point = false news. NYT , like all the rest, has sold out long ago. 30-40 years ago, NYT was my go to. This year, I've been following with no small obsession the news in our pathological election and Syria. MSM (Main Stream Media) has lost all integrity in investigative journalism.... it's not hard to see that they are in it both for the ratings/dollars and as a mouthpiece for US propaganda. I have come to rely on alternate sources. So, no surprises about the article that you site. I'm not sure that it matters tho.... most ppl over here avoid the news and thinking for themselves and the others are catching on that the NYT, WaPo (Washington Post) are not to be trusted. eye, risky business....

@ Teresa.... who said it's not OK to talk about politics?? i have noticed that it doesn't play here, but who said that. The state of all our countries and the world can't be overlooked.

The subject of euthanasia is a subject for another day. it is no business for government. I've been with a few of my cats when their life ended. In the US, I think that euthanasia is legal in Oregon and maybe now/soon in CA. I know for a fact that it was happening quietly during the aids epidemic in San Francisco in the 80's ... thus, the hypocrisy of outlawing it.

My cats have similar sensibilities to yours..... and, the rat population has decreased here to.. I live in the woods But, I think to some extent the rats won't come around if they smell cat.

linda
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:00 pm

Thanks Linda :)

I'll drop you a PM tomorrow because I'm confused about "fake news" what it is and it isn't,
far as I can see there's many "twisted" news, fake news is 100% fake I'd think.

What do you mean when you say it's no business for the government, without the government and its laws there's a change of abuse right?
Reminds me of the first clinic in Florida which resulted in an epidemic of addiction on oxycodon and other painkilling drugs.
There needs to be some form of regulation or control right?
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:14 pm

what I mean by "it's not business for the government: I'm referring to an individual's right to choose, medical options... like vaccination, abortion and euthanasia. Our bodies are our sovereign territories. To me, things like certifying skills for docs, perhaps some form of drug control tho that topic seems to have a few sides are within the scope of government. The US has criminalized drug use and have ruined millions of lives. It is now known that this started in the 60's to stop the antiwar protests and alternative view points..... the US is much more suble that some dictatorships. same result. There's a case in the UK right now.... a baby with horrific problems, the gov is ordering removal of life support.... the parents are fighting it. it's hopeles but who has the right to determine?

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks Linda :)

What do you mean when you say it's no business for the government, without the government and its laws there's a change of abuse right?
Reminds me of the first clinic in Florida which resulted in an epidemic of addiction on oxycodon and other painkilling drugs.
There needs to be some form of regulation or control right?
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:20 pm

Thanks for the clarity, yes I agree. (ps have you hear about WoW-woman on waves)

Don't get me started on the "war on drugs" and all the major fuckups of the CIA since the 1950's
it's the first link reaching to afghanistan (1979) and all the way to todays so called war on "terrorism" (Isis is just a drugs cartel has nothing to do with religion) they say "black lives matter" but I see the same war on liberals,hippies and black people today it's just dressed differently to mislead the public, which results in dumb voting ofcourse.
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby partofit22 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:53 am

Linda Anderson wrote:what I mean by "it's not business for the government: I'm referring to an individual's right to choose, medical options... like vaccination, abortion and euthanasia. Our bodies are our sovereign territories. To me, things like certifying skills for docs, perhaps some form of drug control tho that topic seems to have a few sides are within the scope of government. The US has criminalized drug use and have ruined millions of lives. It is now known that this started in the 60's to stop the antiwar protests and alternative view points..... the US is much more suble that some dictatorships. same result. There's a case in the UK right now.... a baby with horrific problems, the gov is ordering removal of life support.... the parents are fighting it. it's hopeles but who has the right to determine?

fukasetsu wrote:Thanks Linda :)

What do you mean when you say it's no business for the government, without the government and its laws there's a change of abuse right?
Reminds me of the first clinic in Florida which resulted in an epidemic of addiction on oxycodon and other painkilling drugs.
There needs to be some form of regulation or control right?


The part in bold, yes, I asked myself the same question ..
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby partofit22 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:55 am

The opiate epidemic has been called "slow motion euthanasia"-
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby partofit22 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:57 am

Linda Anderson wrote:Fuki, I'll start with a few comments. I won't go into more since I have now moved for the weekend to house sitting for 3 doggies (Havanese) and some chickens in the redwoods .... sad to say, I don't like leaving my cat Dolly either. She is well cared for but..

Main point = false news. NYT , like all the rest, has sold out long ago. 30-40 years ago, NYT was my go to. This year, I've been following with no small obsession the news in our pathological election and Syria. MSM (Main Stream Media) has lost all integrity in investigative journalism.... it's not hard to see that they are in it both for the ratings/dollars and as a mouthpiece for US propaganda. I have come to rely on alternate sources. So, no surprises about the article that you site. I'm not sure that it matters tho.... most ppl over here avoid the news and thinking for themselves and the others are catching on that the NYT, WaPo (Washington Post) are not to be trusted. eye, risky business....

@ Teresa.... who said it's not OK to talk about politics?? i have noticed that it doesn't play here, but who said that. The state of all our countries and the world can't be overlooked.

The subject of euthanasia is a subject for another day. it is no business for government. I've been with a few of my cats when their life ended. In the US, I think that euthanasia is legal in Oregon and maybe now/soon in CA. I know for a fact that it was happening quietly during the aids epidemic in San Francisco in the 80's ... thus, the hypocrisy of outlawing it.

My cats have similar sensibilities to yours..... and, the rat population has decreased here to.. I live in the woods But, I think to some extent the rats won't come around if they smell cat.

linda


The part in bold .. ask Marcel .. :)
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:04 am

partofit22 wrote:The opiate epidemic has been called "slow motion euthanasia"-


wow.

partofit22 wrote:The part in bold .. ask Marcel .. :)


I knew it had something to do with me but I can't remember, I was trying to yesterday but it's gone :lol2:

I remember saying something stupid about "practise and the world" probably,
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby partofit22 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:19 am

fukasetsu wrote:
partofit22 wrote:The opiate epidemic has been called "slow motion euthanasia"-


wow.

partofit22 wrote:The part in bold .. ask Marcel .. :)


I knew it had something to do with me but I can't remember, I was trying to yesterday but it's gone :lol2:

I remember saying something stupid about "practise and the world" probably,


I can totally relate .. I'm fortunate to have adult children who can remind me of what I said and when .. when I say the opposite of what I said when they were say teens or last week .. :lol2:
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Re: in the netherlands, the doctor will kill you now

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:32 pm

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