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Islam resists secularization.

Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:29 am

Linda,

Ha, you mean to be taken with a grain of gomasio, p'rhaps?

I think we can trust things like land-areas, names of current heads of State, names of political divisions or districts within countries, thumb-nail histories, per-capita this-and-that, etc. Thus far I find it hard to argue with characterizations of the (few) political systems and economies I've read about, too. This is a book that is intended as a go-to desk-reference for people in many branches of the US gov't, and is arranged alphabetically by country name (but not thumb-indexed like a dictionary). It appears to be printed on recycled and not very permanent paper. A history of the FACTBOOK is given at the very beginning.

--Joe

Linda Anderson wrote:SOOOO, you think the CIA Fact Book has facts in it? (((dear man))) Who can I write about a refund of my tax dollars?

just ask Mr Cruz, I'm sure he could say..... :blush:
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:47 am

perhaps Joe, but I wouldn't trust the CIA Factbook to give me an accurate interpretation of the blood lines and bonds of the Saudi Royal family.... nor has it proved useful in helping our dear leaders over the years from making horrible mistakes which I would call stupid if I am honest.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:09 am

This has crossed my path:

Saudi Arabia’s Depraved Justice:
A Sri Lankan housemaid is soon to be stoned to death, as the world turns a blind eye.

https://newrepublic.com/article/125069/saudi-arabias-depraved-justice

It must be remembered that this latest twist in the conversation has nothing to do with admitting vetted refugees.

And, ofc, this is far from the only country that has a violent and murderous sensibility.... if you follow human rights, slavery, murder and rape are rampant far beyond ISIS in many other countries... including our so-called civilized countries.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Caodemarte on Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:45 pm

It is clear that Jessica is correct that several postings here are "racist, inflammatory hate speech." Although such speech is legal in the US at least, the moderators will have to decide what the TOS allows.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:59 pm

Here is a link to the online menu of facts about Saudi Arabia, in particular, as given in THE CIA FACTBOOK -- 2016.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/sa.html

The first operable button in the Saudi Arabia menu, "Introduction" gives a very helpfully informative brief historical and political overview.

--Joe
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:40 pm

Surely, after centuries of evidence, any degree of wisdom will recognise that sweeping statements and generalisations over race are ill-founded. There are quite a number of states in which the human rights record is sickening. While researching Saudi's take a look at Iran's

People are essentially the same. Only conditioning and social/legal restrictions vary

This is why Buddism should encourage independence and freedom of mind, IMO

m
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:56 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:perhaps Joe, but I wouldn't trust the CIA Factbook to give me an accurate interpretation of the blood lines and bonds of the Saudi Royal family.... nor has it proved useful in helping our dear leaders over the years from making horrible mistakes which I would call stupid if I am honest.

All interesting points. But I would think that the info on bloodlines would be accurate, and easily contestable by the Saudis if the info was incorrect. As for how the info is ever used, I doubt that much policy is based on the info of this book, but it may serve as a starting-point for education or update for general readers in government. Personally, I do not look at it with any suspicion, nor would I take it as a sole source of info.

As a licensed amateur radio operator in my country, holding the highest-class license available, I take this info as very enriching, and add it to the gleanings and glosses from my conversations via radio, over my own antennas, with people in 163 DX entities ("Countries") thus far. Hail!, high-frequency (HF) radio propagation!

--Joe

Here is the FACTBOOK's section on Saudi Arabia's International Disputes:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Saudi Arabia

Disputes - international:

Saudi Arabia has reinforced its concrete-filled security barrier along sections of the now fully demarcated border with Yemen to stem illegal cross-border activities; Kuwait and Saudi Arabia continue discussions on a maritime boundary with Iran; Saudi Arabia claims Egyptian-administered islands of Tiran and Sanafir.

Refugees and internally displaced persons:

refugees (country of origin): 30,000 (Yemen) (2015)

stateless persons: 70,000 (2014); note - thousands of biduns (stateless Arabs) are descendants of nomadic tribes who were not officially registered when national borders were established, while others migrated to Saudi Arabia in search of jobs; some have temporary identification cards that must be renewed every five years, but their rights remain restricted; most Palestinians have only legal resident status; some naturalized Yemenis were made stateless after being stripped of their passports when Yemen backed Iraq in its invasion of Kuwait in 1990; Saudi women cannot pass their citizenship on to their children, so if they marry a non-national, their children risk statelessness.

Trafficking in persons:

current situation: Saudi Arabia is a destination country for men and women subjected to forced labor and, to a lesser extent, forced prostitution; many men and women from Central Asia, the Middle East, and Africa who voluntarily travel to Saudi Arabia as domestic servants or low-skilled laborers subsequently face conditions of involuntary servitude, including nonpayment, withholding of passports, restriction of movement, food deprivation, and abuse; some migrant workers are forced to work indefinitely beyond the term of their contract because their employers will not grant them a required exit visa; foreign domestic workers are particularly vulnerable because of their isolation in private homes; women, primarily from Asian and African countries, are believed to be forced into prostitution in Saudi Arabia, while other foreign women were reportedly kidnapped and forced into prostitution after running away from abusive employers; Yemeni, Nigerian, Pakistani, Afghan, Chadian, and Sudanese children were subjected to forced labor as beggars and street vendors in Saudi Arabia, facilitated by criminal gangs.

tier rating: Tier 3 - Saudi Arabia does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so; in 2013, the government did not report prosecuting or convicting any trafficking offenders and identified and referred fewer victims to protection services than in the previous reporting period; the sponsorship system, including the exit visa requirement, continues to restrict the freedom of movement of migrant workers and to hamper the ability of victims to pursue legal cases against their employers; the withholding workers’ passports remains widespread because legislation prohibiting the practice was not enforced; officials continue to arrest, detain, deport, and sometimes prosecute trafficking victims for unlawful acts committed as a direct result of being trafficked (2014)

Illicit drugs:

regularly enforces the death penalty for drug traffickers, with foreigners being convicted and executed disproportionately; improving anti-money-laundering legislation and enforcement.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:12 am

Michaeljc wrote:While researching Saudi's take a look at Iran's


Most of the things told about Iran over mainstream media are lies. For example, read about how highly ranked Iran is in research:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_a ... l_rankings

Iran ranks highly in the sciences even with sanctions whereas Saudi Arabia receives a lot of help from America and UK. The fact is, Iran has a higher chance to become more secularized unlike Saudi Arabia. Many Iranian youth are tired with Islam for eample.

"Persia" is the Greco-Roman word for Iran, it's been called that since Sassanid times. It's important to note that not even most Western politicians pronounce it correctly or care to learn (i.e., it's not "I-Ran" but "E-Run").

I've already explained how Iran is a heaven compared to Saudi Arabia, and why the West supports Saudi Arabia over Iran. However, in the process they have supported the main progenitors of Islamic fanaticism and those that spread to destabilize the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is the main aggressor, not Iran or Syria who are actually fighting off ISIS. Edrogan of Turkey, which also an ally of the USA, is strengthening ISIS.

"You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair- ... 17157.html
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Caodemarte on Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:07 am

The article you link to explains some of the main reason that ISIS is an enemy of Saudi Arabia and vice versa.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:33 am

Adios Amigos
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:41 am

Caodemarte wrote:The article you link to explains some of the main reason that ISIS is an enemy of Saudi Arabia and vice versa.


ISIS was still heavily inspired by Salafist and Wahhabist ideology though.

The ME is a mess, but it's obvious which sides are better or more bearable.

Ever since the growth of Islam in 650 AD, it's been like this. Alawites have Zoroastrian beliefs that predate Islam though, and a lot of Iranian youth are dissatisfied with Islam. I bet in 20 yrs Zoroastrianism will be revived in Kurds and Persians and the regime will improve (as the stats showing growth in its scientific and tech sector show), and hopefully, Christian Assyrians will also reestablish themselves. Gulf Arabs are the main ones holding everything back due to the reasons outlined in this post with the Chomsky quote. Islam was just a political tool for control for them, which is why they still use derogatory words such as "fire worshipper" to describe Iranians or other non-Arab ethnic groups; it refers to their pre-Islamic past in a mean way.

Note, how many influential Iranian American scientists there are compared to Saudi Americans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_A ... ndividuals). Check the science/academia area. There are also a lot of influential Lebanese Americans. Basically, they're model minorities. Point is, it's not in the culture of Gulf Arabs to accomplish anything worthy.

Also, the Islamic Golden age was due to the spread of Persianate culture, not having anything to do with Islam.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:09 pm

JessicaLeigh wrote:
Samsaric Spiral wrote:I think, in general, Saudis or most Gulf Arabs are prone to violent tendencies and lack sophistication or intelligence on average.


WTF????????

Samsaric Spiral,

The language you use here (and in other posts on this thread) is racist and offensive. Race-based generalized insults are NOT OK and should NOT be tolerated on this forum. I've reported your post to the moderaters and ask that they step in with a public clarification on the matter. Your language is racist, inflammatory hate speech & constitutes a violation of forum Terms of Service.

Moderators, please step in.


I agree Jessica, it requires no moderation for me but I share your observations on the banal ignorance manifestos. Either way I just never see how "Zen Buddhism" and its inner thirst mix with the opiniated stuff about politics or whatever. So I don't see how this is even an item on forums like these, so I tend to not mix into the talks. That's not what I am here for, these kind of topics belong to field of mainstream media, but that might just be me. We're here to remind each other of who we really are, in topics like this it won't work because it's just too opiniated stemming from divisionary illusions to begin with.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:18 pm

I always try to put across the question of the person believing rather than the characteristics of particular beliefs : ie why we need to believe, especially since beliefs are always different from what is. And also that the need for psychological security separates us from seeing clearly. However, I get the impression that we are only able to understand our own beliefs.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:23 pm

macdougdoug wrote:However, I get the impression that we are only able to understand our own beliefs.


There are some exceptions but generally that's correct, just look at any random topic regarding our fabrications regarding Zen Buddhism, detached observation will show the remnants of our self-grasping. Let alone in topics regarding Islam or any wordly news events.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Caodemarte on Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:09 pm

I think it is best to join Michaeljc in saying "Adios" to this thread.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:14 pm

Caodemarte wrote:I think it is best to join Michaeljc in saying "Adios" to this thread.


There are a lot of "Adios's" on ZFI but most of the times they keep returning to "Hola" even among the so called most experienced (whatever that means) it's a habit, the more is not always the merrier (yes carousel pun intended) anyway will you lead by example then? Because when there's fuel there's fire, when this appears that appears. I always say what isn't said also matters. :heya:
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:15 pm

Bodhisattvas, who'll tie a ribbon on this "thread"?

--Joe

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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:43 pm

I find it interesting that Westerners have called for the destruction of Iranians, who speak an Indo-European language and have large elements that influenced Western culture greatly, while they support Gulf Arab nations that possess absolutely no cultural relation.

"The creation of the Saudi-led 'Islamic coalition against terrorism' is necessary for survival of Saudi Arabia, as Daesh has now become a problem for the kingdom, which has financed a number of radical movements in the region; however, the alliance may set its sights on Iran after dealing with Daesh, according to Middle East experts."

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151 ... z3ubJTlQeq

Saudi Arabia also said they want to increase propaganda in Syria and Iran, basically meaning they want to spread Wahhabism in those parts (the main source of terrorism).

I'm not being racist when I say the truth. I have encountered plenty of Iranian with good taste in art, literature, philosophy, and so much more. Rarely, if ever, a Gulf Arab and there are obvious genetic reasons for this due to their high rate of inbreeding (which I substantiated with sources)
Last edited by Samsaric Spiral on Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby partofit22 on Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:50 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
JessicaLeigh wrote:
Samsaric Spiral wrote:I think, in general, Saudis or most Gulf Arabs are prone to violent tendencies and lack sophistication or intelligence on average.


WTF????????

Samsaric Spiral,

The language you use here (and in other posts on this thread) is racist and offensive. Race-based generalized insults are NOT OK and should NOT be tolerated on this forum. I've reported your post to the moderaters and ask that they step in with a public clarification on the matter. Your language is racist, inflammatory hate speech & constitutes a violation of forum Terms of Service.

Moderators, please step in.


I agree Jessica, it requires no moderation for me but I share your observations on the banal ignorance manifestos. Either way I just never see how "Zen Buddhism" and its inner thirst mix with the opiniated stuff about politics or whatever. So I don't see how this is even an item on forums like these, so I tend to not mix into the talks. That's not what I am here for, these kind of topics belong to field of mainstream media, but that might just be me. We're here to remind each other of who we really are, in topics like this it won't work because it's just too opiniated stemming from divisionary illusions to begin with.


I think difficult discussions (such as this one) create excellent opportunities to communicate with each other with great care and unlimited patience- Granted they often crash and burn- But dividing the internet into sections where one can discuss this but not that is a trap because if such a discussion can't be carefully discussed here it won't be discussed any better anywhere else-
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:29 pm

Caodemarte wrote:The article you link to explains some of the main reason that ISIS is an enemy of Saudi Arabia and vice versa.


I hate comments like this. Of course I realize ISIS is an enemy of Saudi Arabia. I'm not an idiot. I'm saying Saudi Arabia, which exports Wahhabi and Salafist ideology to parts of ME, inspired them. Saudi Arabia is the main destabilizer of the ME due to their support of Islamic extremism.
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