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Islam resists secularization.

Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:49 am

Islam resists secularization. It is innate in the actual religious beliefs of Islam.

Wahhabism and Salafism are true Islam, sadly. Consider how Islam had a violent beginning with Muhammad waging war, killing a bunch of innocents and taking their wives. The man was a violent pedophile who even beheaded people. Islam was just an excuse for Arab expansionism and imperialism. It is a religion of savageness and backwardness, and I don’t care about being politically correct.

Islam cannot reform. It cannot without changing its genealogy and thus becoming un-Islamic. Look at Baha’ism, for example. It, alongside with Sufism which was TYPICALLY more Hindu, receives a ton of persecution in Iran.

However, the fact fundamentalist Islam is starting to affect Europe is for three reasons: 1) USA strengthened ISIS by opposing Assad, Russia, and Iran. Assad isn’t that great, but he’s really the best way to end ISIS and introduce stability in Middle East. This constant interventionism is aggravating the situation, and both Assad and Gaddafi, ironically enough, predicted something like this morbid situation would befall Europe. 2) Why, in the world, did Europe open its borders to hordes of Syrian refugees when they already have a large enough Muslim population that have troubles assimilating? It isn’t that hard to predict ISIS would blend in with them, omg. 3) Why is USA and the West allies with Saudi Arabia, the main exporters of Wahhabism and Salafism? If anything, each refugee needed a serious background check, and it would have been better to stick with accepting only the Christians.

Muhammad was a crazy warlord, and peace be not onto him. I’d be beheaded saying that in most Islamic countries. That should be a hint there is something wrong with Islam, which is irreparable.

I think Muslims do deserve suspicion, but one should not conflate race or ethnicity with religious background. Always make sure what is the person’s religion before discriminating them. Both Shiite and Sunni Muslims deserve suspicion. One has a choice over his or her religion, but one does not have a choice over his or her race or ethnicity.

Christianity began with a pacifistic man who valued mercy and sparing even the wicked. Islam began with war and bloodshed. It values turning the other cheek whereas Islam has always been about destroying anything that substitutes (even a little bit) for the monotheistic authoritarian figurehead. Both are proselytizing, but Islam has a far more violent history.

Islam cannot reform without changing its nature. It happened with Babism and Bahaism.

Muhammad approved of beheading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

“The Banu Qurayza was besieged for 25 days until they surrendered.[1] One of Muhammad’s companions decided that “the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives”. Muhammad approved of the ruling, calling it similar to God’s judgment,[8][9][10][11][12] after which all male members of the tribe who had reached puberty were beheaded.[2][13] The Muslim jurist Tabari quotes 600–900 being executed.[1][3] The Sunni hadith do not give the number killed, but state that all males were killed and one woman.[14] The rest of the women and children were sold in exchange for weapons and horses, according to Islamic sources.[1]”


Jesus never tried to murder anyone, and when his followers raised the sword against Roman guards who were sent to capture him, Jesus told them to put down their swords unlike Muhammad who justified a beheading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_by_th ... _the_sword

"It wasn’t until Constantine that Christianity began to associate itself with war and violence."
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby macdougdoug on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:57 am

Samsaric Spiral wrote: One has a choice over his or her religion


Do we really choose what we believe? Or is it to do with causes and conditions?
Do we choose even our next thought?
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Caodemarte on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:34 pm

Perhaps you should learn about the religion and its history before you attempt to defame it.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:06 pm

sorry to hear that SS... indeed, do some research. This is so so complex. The conflict depends on language like that.

Consider also the humanitarian aspects... the region has been under severe drought conditions for years since 1970, growing worse every year. People were displaced in the hardships, ppl can't take care of their families. Some have been living abroad for generations, and have experienced severe hardship and discrimination. At the end of the day, I'm not so sure that this is a religious war tho that is the banner floated. Power and resentment are dangerous allies. I just don't know, but it's more.

Life is never safe tho we think otherwise.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:22 pm

PS, in case you haven't noticed, violence shows itself in many religions, including Buddhist. If you do the math, the percentage of violence is miniscule compared to the numbers of ppl .... especially compared to the violence involved in colonization in our country and abroad as well as current day injustices and the Bush legacy. This could be seen, regardless of religion, as the old testament philosophy: an eye for an eye. It's never worked. I trust that this group will be stopped.... but more so, I deeply pray that the root of the violence and the part we all play as humans will be seen through. yes, yes, it's never happened.... sigh. yet, throughout history, I've heard of slave traders, etc who came to their senses and stopped, not that it stopped the violence. But, we've got the internet, and it can be part of this awakening. The earth will survive and heal itself over millenia regardless of what we inflict. Only a very big transpersonal heart can take on that possibility.

PPS, apparently, Syria and other countries are secular countries. I do not know how true that is, I have also heard that the vast majority of muslims are not religious, just as Christians, etc over here...
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby partofit22 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:52 pm

Make hummus, not war!
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:14 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Perhaps you should learn about the religion and its history before you attempt to defame it.


This is pretty accurate:

If you read the Koran, you will find that there are some good things, and many MANY terrible things.
The good things were said when the Prophet was in Mecca, when Islam was new and had not consolidated it’s power.
When the Prophet went to Medina however, the revelation took a very dark turn. The good Meccan verses (what we western liberals would like) were abrogated (naskh) for the later Medinan verses.

You cannot say it’s wrong, that would be apostasy which they kill you for. To suggest reform is to imply it’s not perfect as it is – which is rewarded with death. Ask Mahmoud Mohammed Taha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mohammed_Taha
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:41 am

Give me the Sufis, any day.

:Namaste:,

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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:19 am

Samsaric Spiral wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:Perhaps you should learn about the religion and its history before you attempt to defame it.


This is pretty accurate:


As far as I know SS, you seem to be studying philosophy and remember you as one who cares for humans and the planet... so WHY do you rely on a flimsy quote from Wiki as an insight into a religion??? If you wish to know zen or any other system, you have to know it from the inside out. You have not given Islam that respect. It's not rocket science that 99.9999..... % Muslims do not support this. So what has this activated in you.... you need not answer here, but it's worthy of considering.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby another_being on Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:16 pm

:Namaste:

"But, we've got the internet, and it can be part of this awakening." -- also provided a ray of light. Thank you.

:peace:
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby King Kong on Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:58 pm

Allow me to express my personal view on this topic.

It is fundamentally wrong to say that "Islam resists secularization".

People tend to have preconceived view on what Islam is, mainly through media, that Islam is merely a religion like many others you and I are so familiar.

Do you agree that the word "Islam" is defined as religion practiced by Muslims?

The word religion, is a noun. Every noun has certain attributes so we can make sense of it, the same way as the noun cat has several attributes like meow, 4 legs, eat rats, furry......etc. The 4 common attributes of religion are, a Supreme being(that is God, personal God or not doesn't matter), reward and punishment system(Heaven and Hell) and infallible scriptures and a main character as the founder(Prophet, or Son of God, or spiritual teacher, or Holy person who performs miracles......etc).

Islam, however, as many Muslims will tell you, is a complete way of life, an all encompassing style of life from how should you clean your anus after defecating to how to run a government.

YES, how to run a government.

Islam as a religion is merely a small part of it. Islam is a complete system to manage and run a society, the same way as Communism is another system to run a society, so with Nazism, Democracy.

Just like a company requires a management system, a society requires an ideology to function. Secularism, Communism and Islamism are different favors of ideologies to run and manage a society.

Roughly put, Islam as a whole, comprising of political ideas(example, how to deal with non-believers), Sharia the law system, economic and banking system and of course the religion.

Consequently, from the above definition of religion, the word "Islam" is definitely not a religion, it is much much more.

It just happen that the Islamic religion is simply called "Islam". People often missed the point.

Mainly due to the fact that people who live in a society with separation of Church and State as foundation of socio-politic will always have perception of religion is just a religion, a PRIVATE business that you and I must respect. However, there is truly no separation of Church and State in Islam. For Islam, Church and State are actually ONE entity, there is no different. One characteristic of Islamic style government is that the ultimate law makers are those religious figures rather than people elected representatives.

For convenient, let’s use separate term for Islamic ideology - Islamism and Islamic faith - Islam, the religion. And please take note that Islam, the religion, is a subset of Islamism.

Also, we will define those Muslims who push hard for Islamism as Islamists, to distinguish from your average moderate Muslim neighbors who just want to get on with lives and nothing else.

That is why I said the title "Islam resists secularization" is fundamentally wrong, Islamism and Secularism are just 2 conflicting ideologies. It is more accurate to say “Islamists resist Secularism” instead.

If you don't believe or can't understand why Islamists resist secularism, then please ask yourself a question, will you resist Communism? Nazism? Sure, you will, because Communism/Nazism and your beloved Secularism are 2 competing and most importantly conflicting, distinct ideologies.

This is the same psychology with Islamists who resist Secularism. They already have their very own beloved ideology, the same as you who already have the beloved Secularism.

We need to look at the forest(Islamism), not just a tree(Islam) or a leave(Muslim). Then you should be able to understand why there are so much conflicts between Muslims who set foots on non-Islamic countries and the native people there, Europe no-go zones, Southern Thailand, Burma(clashes with Rohingya Muslims), Xinjiang China, Southern Philippine(Abu Sayyaf group), partition of Northern India into East-West Muslim regions(now Bangladesh and Pakistan), Northern Nigeria(Boko Haram), constant upheavals across Middle-East(Islamists vs Government Dictators who don’t implement enough Islamism.)

Muslims are what Islamism makes, just as you and I are what Secularism makes, so do Nazis are what Nazism makes.

Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Secularists, Atheists......you name it, they are called “form” in Diamond Sutra. An ideology is an invisible force that dictates and shapes how the form should look like and to behave.

Start with understanding the underlining ideology in a society to understand the people in that society, not the other way round.
We are not God creation, but part of GOD. We are pieces of GOD, come from GOD and will return to GOD, much the same way as drops of water come from the ocean and finally will return to the ocean. GOD is not an entity with attributes but a vast sea of universal consciousness and love in the Universe.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:34 pm

Samsaric Spiral wrote:Islam resists secularization. It is innate in the actual religious beliefs of Islam.


I take this as an prejudiced and biased anti-Islam comment and I am offended and do not approve. Please stop making anti-Islamic generalizations and derogations.

This kind of discussion may be entered into, but must be done so with great caution and great tenderness for the effects of taking positions. There is no religious system that has an innate resistance to reason. Many Muslims in Western nations have clearly adopted a pluralist point of view regarding religious diversity. The same goes for individual Muslims in countries ruled as Islamic States such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc., even though they may be unable to voice their views out in the open because of the dictatorships in those countries, and it should be noted that the dictatorships hide behind Islam and use it for justification against the principles and teachings of Islam, just like the West did when ruled by the Catholic Church, or after the Reformation, for example when the Crown of England hide behind the Church of England. The same applies to countries ruled as Buddhist nations such as Myanmar, Sri Lanka, etc. where the dictators hide behind the Buddha Dharma to justify their abuses. Powerful Kings, dictators, military commanders, etc. will always use whatever handy rationalization is at hand to justify themselves and their oppression. It seems, Indonesia is attempting with some successes and some failures to have a pluralist society with a majority Muslim population.

Anyone who wants to learn what people in the Muslim nations think and feel on their own terms and not filtered through Western prejudices, I recommend reviewing the past Doha Debates and the new incarnation of those debates at The New Arab Debates.

The question of a religious system's response to "secularization" is an ambiguous question. As a Western Buddhist, I am deeply opposed to attempts to "secularize" Buddha Dharma. To me, a secularized religion is a contradiction of terms, an oxymoron. To secularize means to make separate from the religious or spiritual connection or influences. So why would anyone who identifies as a religious follower not resist secularization of their religion? Accepting the secularization of one's religion is nothing other than apostasy.

The secularization of society is a different question from the secularization of religion. I do agree in the secularization of society in the sense that it means to separate church and state in the system of political governance. I have not seen any nation controlled by any religion (or by the anti-religion of atheism) that works out well. True secularization of society is just a way of saying that we affirm the value of pluralistic society. This is exactly what Thomas Jefferson said when arguing for the separation of Church and State, because though his immediate concern was for the mandatory tithing to the Anglican Church required by all Virginia citizens, his greater concern was for the religious freedom of all religions

The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination. Autobiography


But though welcomed, that kind of separation of Church and State does not go far enough to address the current problem In the USA and other Western nations in which the state "religion" is capitalism and worship of the almighty dollar. To his credit, Pope Francis has made this connection an important part of his global religious message. The need for secularization of government to include separation of government by the capitalist religion is also of supreme importance, if we are to bring peace to the human world.

_/|\_
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:49 pm

King Kong wrote:Islam, however, as many Muslims will tell you, is a complete way of life, an all encompassing style of life from how should you clean your anus after defecating to how to run a government.


We must remember that some Rabbis of Judaism, several streams of Christianity, Dogen's Buddhist regulations for the ordained, etc, also teach with such specificity about how to wipe our butts. The first Zen-specific treatise published in Japan was Eisai's "A Treatise On Letting Zen Flourish To Protect the State." The roots of modern Western philosophy lie in the philosophies of Socrates, Pythagoras, Pyrroh (also the subject of the recent book The Greek Buddha), etc, whose philosophies were also a "complete way of life" and could not be dissected into the neat categories of "religion," "politics," and "philosophy."

These are interesting, but complicated and complex, questions that deserve attention. But again, we need to be wary of focusing on one religion like Islam as if it were the only example of teaching a complete way of life that bleeds between religion, philosophy, and political statecraft. Here in the USA we have Dominionists who are at all levels of government and even sit on the Supreme Court.

_/|\_
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:00 am

King Kong wrote:Islam as a religion is merely a small part of it. Islam is a complete system to manage and run a society, the same way as Communism is another system to run a society, so with Nazism, Democracy.


This is an objectionable statement because it compares Islam to Communism and Nazism as if all three belong in the same category. Statements like this should be rebuked. Why wasn't "capitalism" added to the list as another system to run a society? Why wasn't Hinduism added for India or Buddhism added for Myanmar and Sri Lanka?

King Kong wrote:Just like a company requires a management system, a society requires an ideology to function. Secularism, Communism and Islamism are different favors of ideologies to run and manage a society.

At least here there is an attempt to distinguish Islam from "Islamism." But there is no such thing as a universal Islamism, any more than there is a universal Christianism or Buddhism or "Capitalist Secularism."

King Kong wrote:Roughly put, Islam as a whole, comprising of political ideas(example, how to deal with non-believers), Sharia the law system, economic and banking system and of course the religion.
Here we have unfortunately again lost the distinction between Islam and Islamism.

King Kong wrote:For convenient, let’s use separate term for Islamic ideology - Islamism and Islamic faith - Islam, the religion. And please take note that Islam, the religion, is a subset of Islamism.

Here again the distinction is made, but it is topsy turvy. Islamism is a subset of Islam, not the other way around.

We have to think of it this way. If Islam were a subset of Islamism, then there would be no fighting between Sunnii and Shia Islamists. Saying Islam is a subset of Islamism is like saying Christianity is a subset of Christianism.

There is no centralized hierarchical organization in Islam, just as there is no centralized hierarchical organization in Christianity or Buddhism or Judaism or Hinduism. There are national religious organizations such as the Church of England or the Roman Catholic Church which have had to be separated from government but which still have great influence and sway in national politics. Similarly, in the predominantly Muslim nations there is a spectrum of national Islamic organizations that heavily influence and control civil society, but none of them have absolute control as religious institutions. Even the Supreme Leader of Iran does not have absolute control. Even the monarchy of the House of Saud has more absolute authority under its monarchy than it does under its Islamist veneer. In these Islam nations, the Islam that has the most control is anything but a universal Islam and is always a sectarian Islam vying for power for its own version of Islam and oppressing other versions of Islam. That is why Muslims in the Western nations generally have a clear understanding of separation of Church and State from the positive experience, and many Muslims who live as a minority sect of Islam (Sunnis in a Shia controlled area and Shia in a Sunni controlled area) know from negative experience why separation of church and state are a good thing.

King Kong wrote:Muslims are what Islamism makes, just as you and I are what Secularism makes, so do Nazis are what Nazism makes.


This is another example of a biased and prejudiced claim that generalizes beyond reason and turns the relationship upside down. Saying "Muslims is what Islamism makes" is like saying Christians is what Christian Dominionism makes. Islamism is an attitude that many Muslims adopt, if they weren't brainwashed from childhood, but I would argue that most Muslims when questioned reasonably would recognize that Islamism is not a good thing since it pits even the sects of Islam against each other.

King Kong wrote:Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Secularists, Atheists......you name it, they are called “form” in Diamond Sutra. An ideology is an invisible force that dictates and shapes how the form should look like and to behave.

Start with understanding the underlining ideology in a society to understand the people in that society, not the other way round.


I don't agree that "they are called 'form' in Diamond Sutra." The Diamond Cutter Sutra (Vajrachchedika Sutra) only uses the word form (rupa) in two senses, that of form and that of sights. For form as form, there is only one instance of that use in the sentence:

Every kind of creature which can be called 'being’, egg-born, formed in a womb, born from moisture (sweat-born) or produced by metamorphosis, with form or without it, or transcending the distinction between perception and non-perception, all these I must guide towards the Nirvana of Absolute Liberation.
So there is no discussion of people and their views as "form."

Everywhere else the term form (rupa) is used is in the sense "color" or "sights" as in these examples:

Subhuti, in the practice of charity, bodhisattvas should abide in nothing whatsoever. That is, to
practice charity without attachment to form, sound, smell, taste, touch, or dharmas.
[...]
Subhuti, bodhisattvas and mahasattvas should give rise to a pure mind that is not attached to form, sound, smell, taste, touch, or dharmas.
[...]
Then the World Honored One spoke this verse:
Those who see me in form,
Or seek me through sound,
Are on a mistaken path;
They do not see the Tathagata.


So even to the extent that Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Secularists, Atheists, etc. could be called “form,” the Diamond Cutter Sutra says to not be attached to such distinctions and to practice charity toward them and to lead all such beings to the Nirvana of Liberation without any attachment to the form, sound, smell, taste, touch, or dharmas in which they may appear to the senses.

The Diamond Cutter Sutra does not try to analyze or compare how ideologies arise, or to evaluate a good ideology from a bad ideology, or to judge people according to their society's prevailing ideology, as if every individual could be understood and thereby judged according to the prevailing ideology of the society in which they grew up.

The Diamond Cutter Sutra says our hearts and minds should be open to each and every person without any discriminatory attachment as to their form, sound, smell, taste, touch, or dharmas

That's what's in my Diamond Cutter Sutra.

_/|\_
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:01 am

Gregory wrote:
it should be noted that the dictatorships hide behind Islam and use it for justification against the principles and teachings of Islam, just like the West did when ruled by the Catholic Church, or after the Reformation, for example when the Crown of England hide behind the Church of England. The same applies to countries ruled as Buddhist nations such as Myanmar, Sri Lanka, etc. where the dictators hide behind the Buddha Dharma to justify their abuses. Powerful Kings, dictators, military commanders, etc. will always use whatever handy rationalization is at hand to justify themselves and their oppression. It seems, Indonesia is attempting with some successes and some failures to have a pluralist society with a majority Muslim population


I have been tempted to make this point myself but have been hesitant to become involved in this discussion. As I see it Islam is just going through a stage very similar to that of Christianity not so long ago. Some of you already know that I have spent 2 years working and deeply immersed within two very orthodox Muslim communities offshore (Sudan and Pakistan). Although still very dogmatic in regards to their religion the people I worked closely with were the most honest, trustworthy, and fun loving I have ever encountered in a foreign setting. The 'Christians' I worked with in other settings were not in the same league. In saying this I found it very difficult to hold my tongue over many issues regarding equality for women and the manner in which everyone was under the thumb of their religious leaders. There was relentless pressure to conform, just as was the case when I was young growing up in the Catholic church. My generated resisted and threw of the shackles. Over time the same event will occur within Muslim communities, I am sure. Once it starts it can be very rapid.

Nevertheless, pockets of fundamentalists will persist just as we find within Christianity in developed democracies today.

What is it about us humans that allows us to drop any concept of difference when we are one-to-one in an isolated setting yet quickly resort to bias when in groups?

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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:09 pm

It seems to me that the topic-title is confused, or nonsensical.

A religion is not secular.

An official government can be secular, however, in its bases and operations. Some say a "society" can be secular, but I can't see how: some members of the society will be religious, and will not relate to others nor to their accepted higher-power on a secular basis.

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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Rotla on Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:31 am

It is true that Islam's holy book promotes waging war against infidels.
The question is if we should worry about it, since most muslims accept pluralism.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:51 am

I think its completely reasonable not to let Muslims into this country for a while.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:28 pm

"Islam's holy book promotes waging war against infidels."

No, it doesn't.
Like its brothers Judaism and Christianity Islam generally accepts defensive warfare. Like all humans, Muslims then often rationalize all war as defensive.
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Re: Islam resists secularization.

Postby ed blanco on Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:30 pm

Samsaric Spiral wrote:I think its completely reasonable not to let Muslims into this country for a while.



Absolutly!
A vetting process that is clear and, to some extend effective. No muslim sensitivity is worth one innocent life.
American lives matter man.

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