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Europe's migrant crisis

Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:11 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/03/us-europe-migrants-germany-merkel-idUSKCN0RX0A020151003

Dirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :blush: What could have been more blatantly obvious?

Politicians are not afraid of the extreme right as they proclaim

When the silent majority start to shuffle they begin to cringe and back-track. Hell. they could even lose their job

The quiet and rational mainstream are so annoying
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby partofit22 on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:30 pm

Michaeljc wrote:
Kid.JPG


Such photos of children speak volumes, beautifully as well as brutally-

I truly miss Carol's input regarding such matters- goddess too- As well as Dan74-
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:22 pm

I truly miss Carol's input regarding such matters- goddess too- As well as Dan74-


Yes, agreed. Carol is a very brave activist :heya:
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:16 pm

The influx of refugees was due to the meddling of USA and trying to overthrow Assad in Syria. It strengthened ISIS as Putin's recent speech also indicated, hence Russia-Iran-Assad are the only ones really fighting ISIS now.

There are far worse governments in the world on which USA and their allies turn a blind eye. Assad is demonised and wants to be removed for several reasons:

- Assad opposes American hegemony in the Middle East.
- Assad is a member of the Iranian-led axis of resistance against American hegemony in the Middle East and a long time ally of Russia.
- Syria is a key link in the gas pipeline chain, and it chose to support the wrong gas pipeline project. Assad blocked a US-backed Qatar-Turkey gas pipeline proposal that was intended to run through Syria, instead supporting an Iran-Iraq-Syria-Lebanon pipeline proposal, the construction of which the rise of ISIS has conveniently stopped.
- A functioning anti-American Syrian state may serve as a base for Iranian forces and proxies aimed at Israel. Given the relative strength of Iran, it is imperative that Iran be as isolated as possible before the country is attacked. With the destruction of Syria and loyal western government in Syria there will be few obstacles between the US and their allies and war against Iran.

USA have succeeded in destroying Syria. But they have also helped to establish yet another Islamic state resulting in millions of people displaced from their homes. Many of them are heading in western Europe. Since 70s most secular states in the Middle East have been destroyed and replaced with Islamic regimes in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya and now Syria.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:38 pm

Samsaric Spiral wrote:The influx of refugees was due to the meddling of USA and trying to overthrow Assad in Syria. It strengthened ISIS as Putin's recent speech also indicated, hence Russia-Iran-Assad are the only ones really fighting ISIS now.


Here is a background research by the Guardian showing how Syrian dissidents abroad have been interacting with Western politicians and financiers as early as 2005 when Bush cut relations with Syria. The aim from that time onwards has always been to topple the Syrian government. That’s many years before the Arab Spring.

The Syrian opposition: who's doing the talking?

The Pentagon effort to fund Syrian rebels has all but collapsed in total failure, but the CIA is still running a billion dollar program to prop up the rebellion in Syria. However, most support for the rebels come from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. In particular, the Saudis have poured huge amounts of weapons into Syria.

There are 20 to 30 different rebel groups fighting in Syria. The distinction between “moderates” and Islamist rebels is purely fictional. Public and private Saudi money is poured into the so-called moderates, as well as into Al-Qaeda and Islamic State rebels. The Saudis have been the biggest funders of terrorism since the 1980s when they, together with the CIA, created the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, which later transformed into Al-Qaeda and Taliban.

Weapons the US supplied to the Mujahedeen were later used to shoot down Nato planes and helicopter in Afghanistan. Many of the weapons the US and Saudi Arabia now supply to the rebels and Jihadists will later be used against the West.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:13 pm

Could posters who want to persist in analysing this topic on the basis of historical blame rather than the actual situation in Europe please go here:

http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=8324

m
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:23 am

Michaeljc wrote:Could posters who want to persist in analysing this topic on the basis of historical blame rather than the actual situation in Europe please go here:

http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=8324

m


No. We're not going to follow your way of analyzing the actual situation.

Part of Buddhist practice is to understand the causes and conditions that have led to actual situations. They are inseparable.

Analyzing the causes and conditions that have led to Europe's migrant crisis is still on-topic. If you want to mischaracterize it as "historical blame", then be my guest. It's simply the analysis of causes and conditions.

I have no obligation to follow such ridiculous impositions.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:12 am

Samsaric Spiral wrote:I have no obligation to follow such ridiculous impositions.

I have no problem with posting in the Syrian war thread.

However, I think we need to look at where the two connect:

Confidential cables by a senior US diplomat in the Middle East show that the US considered destabilizing the Syrian regime as early as 2006.

Roebuck, a senior diplomat who has been all over the Middle East, suggests that actions be taken to isolate Syria in the Arab world, sow discord between Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia, weaken direct investments to Syria to torpedo economic reforms, and most worryingly, encourage sectarian tensions between Sunnis and Shias in Syria. This last one is particularly disturbing since the US had witnessed by then what sectarian conflict had done to Iraq. It really can't get anymore cynical than that.

What does that mean to the refugee crisis? One objection to the war refugees is that they bring the conflicts of the Middle East to Europe. The fact is, however, that the West has inflamed sectarian conflicts and brought civil war to the Middle East. The Middle East is a patchwork of ethnic and religion groups, which, for the most part, have lived peacefully side by side for centuries.

WikiLeaks Reveals How the US Aggressively Pursued Regime Change in Syria, Igniting a Bloodbath

Here's just a short passage:

History shows that public understanding of US foreign policy depends crucially on assessing the motivations of US officials. It is likely inevitable as a result that US officials will present themselves to the public as having more noble motivations than they share with each other in private, and therefore that if members of the public had access to the motivations shared in private, they might make different assessments of US policy. This is a key reason why WikiLeaks' publishing of US diplomatic cables was so important.

The cables gave the public a recent window into the strategies and motivations of US officials as they expressed them to each other, not as they usually expressed them to the public. In the case of Syria, the cables show that regime change had been a long-standing goal of US policy; that the US promoted sectarianism in support of its regime-change policy, thus helping lay the foundation for the sectarian civil war and massive bloodshed that we see in Syria today; that key components of the Bush administration's regime-change policy remained in place even as the Obama administration moved publicly toward a policy of engagement; and that the US government was much more interested in the Syrian government's foreign policy, particularly its relationship with Iran, than in human rights inside Syria.

A December 13, 2006 cable, "Influencing the SARG [Syrian government] in the End of 2006,"1 indicates that, as far back as 2006 - five years before "Arab Spring" protests in Syria - destabilizing the Syrian government was a central motivation of US policy. The author of the cable was William Roebuck, at the time chargé d'affaires at the US embassy in Damascus. The cable outlines strategies for destabilizing the Syrian government. In his summary of the cable, Roebuck wrote:

We believe Bashar's weaknesses are in how he chooses to react to looming issues, both perceived and real, such as the conflict between economic reform steps (however limited) and entrenched, corrupt forces, the Kurdish question, and the potential threat to the regime from the increasing presence of transiting Islamist extremists. This cable summarizes our assessment of these vulnerabilities and suggests that there may be actions, statements, and signals that the USG can send that will improve the likelihood of such opportunities arising.
(...)
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Samsaric Spiral on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:19 pm

Here's a plan: let's move all refugees to Faroe Islands, so that way those barbarians can have something else to focus on besides killing intelligent pilot whales.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:27 am

Internal Peace wrote:What's troubling is that it is a platform for ISIS to sneak in and cause havoc.

Britain is allowing somewhere in the region of 10,000 in; all of these refugees will receive benefits - I can't get the thought out of my mind that some of these could be ISIS and we're funding them.

That cannot be excluded 100%; however, latest data revealed by the German authorities show that the police is investigating only in 10 cases about an alleged membership in a terrorist organisation. That is 10 cases out of nearly a million refugees/migrants who have reached Europe this year. And even in these 10 cases it has not been confirmed that there is any actual danger. Most of the hundred or more hints received by the police turn out to be somebody trying to badmouth somebody else, like a Syrian Kurd trying to blacken the reputation of a Syrian Arab, or vice versa.

The fact is that Islamist terrorism is homegrown: there are thousands of Europeans fighting for IS in Syria. They have British, French, German, etc., passports and can come back legally any time. Moreover, it is IS strategy to implement an Islamic State in the ME. Terror attacks in Europe are not a priority. And even if it were, they could easily fly in terrorists with fake passports since they have substantial financial means (from our friends in Saudi Arabia) and loads of Syrian passports they could issue to their fighters for their journey to Europe.

Source (in German): Der Spiegel
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:55 pm

Yesterday 150 refugees came to my town and they will (sadly) only stay for 2 weeks since they're in a local gym and we have no location available for permanent housing. They came from the other side of the country where they where also held temporary so they're just roaming around which is a sad situation. What strikes me as odd though is that the locals here are only afraid of their safety instead of offering help to the refugees they only bombard the municipality with questions and worries, so sad that everyone thinks of themselves first.
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:32 am

on FB today: "These aren't Syrians, Libyans or Africans; they are Europeans trying to get to North Africa during the last world war.
So, next time you think of closing the borders you might want to check with your grandparents."

WWII refugees.jpg


they are not the problem
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:33 am

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-under-fire-as-refugee-crisis-in-germany-worsens-a-1060720.html

It was inevitable. The big European bureaucratic machine is too slow and clumsy to deal with the crisis. Rapid coordinated response was required in the beginning

Severe cold can kick in at any time. What when a photo of a body dead in the snow is published?

Angela Merkel has made the biggest political bungle of her career, which is sad as she has been a great head of state. She opened the tap then insisted that others stem the flow i.e. become the monsters. Crazy

I am just trying to analyse realities here. It is not about you and me, or right and wrong. It is about how much political tolerance exists in Europe
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:45 am

then, we must rise above realities and the past....

"By standing up, you keep alive another narrative. It’s one of the ironic points of life. That, for me, is what provides hope; and if you are not there, there is no hope at all." ~Chris Hedges

there is a revolutionary energy afoot on the globe... let us pray that it goes in the right direction.... do not mistake this for attachment. it is far more mature
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:58 am

then, we must rise above realities and the past.


Linda -

As individuals this is possible. But the human race?

The crisis has the potential to destabilise the freedoms that Europe has fought so hard to establish. An example:

Given that migrants are to be 'designated certain geographical locations in which to settle" under Europe's open border policy they are then free to go wherever they please. They are seen as a resource of labour in those locations where many Europeans don't want to live and work. Why should they stay there? Restricting their movement becomes social engineering and is illegal under European law

The essential processing centers are now being described as 'concentration camps' - yet how else to screen and repatriate those that don't qualify?

This really is a nasty situation in the making: lose lose
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:17 am

oh Michael,
your words are not falling on dear ears... but how can we give up hope that humanity will rise to the occasion. I imagine that you have seen and suffered. Hope seems to be a dirty word in Buddhism, is it?

can we sink into this which I quoted above... and how might we have a new wave.... just a simple presence. ofc, I'm mad to suggest it, and yet....

"By standing up, you keep alive another narrative. It’s one of the ironic points of life. That, for me, is what provides hope; and if you are not there, there is no hope at all." ~Chris Hedges

It is beyond me, my sensibility and my age... but I hold a space in my heart....
Not last night,
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:56 am

Michaeljc wrote:The big European bureaucratic machine is too slow and clumsy to deal with the crisis.

Give me any body of 28 nations in Asia, Africa or the Americas that is more efficient at dealing with problems than the EU!

Even only 2 neighboring countries with centuries of common traditions like the UK and France haven't been able to agree on a solution to the handful of refugees in the Calais jungle camp for years. How do you suppose 28 different countries would be able to agree overnight about how to deal with millions of refugees? Cities in the South of Germany are dealing with 10,000 refugees arriving each day, while the UK is incapable of accommodating even the handful at Calais.

The problem is not the EU. The problem are nation states like the UK who practice a beggar-they-neighbor policy. The EU is not a dictatorship or militaristic empire that could force recalcitrant members. The EU relies on peaceful coexistence and consensus to arrive at solutions and Germany has done all it can to take pressure off Greece and other Balkan countries, while you folks are sitting on the sidelines sneering.

The problem is Anglo imperialism and that Europe should have to pay the price for your militaristic adventures. You want to destroy Europe with cultural hegemony and imperialist policies. Don't expect Europeans to agree with that.

Angela Merkel has made the biggest political bungle of her career, which is sad as she has been a great head of state. She opened the tap then insisted that others stem the flow i.e. become the monsters. Crazy

Germany is one of the few countries actually dealing with the refugee problem while the rest is just trying to pass the buck to other countries. Merkel has done a great job. Germany is lucky to have leaders who put the interest of their country and the interest of Europe above their party-political interests.

I am just trying to analyse realities here. It is not about you and me, or right and wrong. It is about how much political tolerance exists in Europe

You have been ranting for the most part. That has nothing to do with "analysis". You seem to be completely incapable of dialogue.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:00 pm

Actually I was wrong :) (woohoo!)

All the negativity came from outsiders (who didn't show up because you need to bring ID for volunteering),
so many locals are helping out we even played a soccer match last evening Zandvoort vs Refugees, dune walks, a tour around the racing circuit, dancing lessons, everyone is cooking and bringing clothes.

Image
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:04 am

I gave up posting on this topic months ago due to personal attack

The scenario playing out was obviously predictable from the beginning

Sad but true

The past is a window into the future
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:41 pm

Michael,

Michaeljc wrote:I gave up posting on this topic months ago due to personal attack

You're a free man, Free Man. And don't you (please... ) forget it.

"Spit out all bitterness."

--Joe
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