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Europe's migrant crisis

Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:17 am

This is truly an awful situation. I really feel for those people and countries who have to find a solution . It another example of how ideals cannot be implemented on the ground. There is no simple solution. There will be heartbreak all the way down the line. The more messages of success sent home the more numbers will increase.

I know from experience that a high proportion of the migrants will not be political refugees as defined by international law. They are often very determined young men who hope to use the international obligations to protect refugees for their own economic benefit. Many will do anything and break any law to achieve their end. Somehow they had the money to pay the traffickers exorbitant charges. The process of vetting them and sending them back requires huge resources that will drain countries like Greece.

Among these there are genuine refugees. Most of these will be from relatively rich families. It is easy to recognise the genuine poor. There wont be many. Meantime there is pressure on authorities to keep accepting this wave. The moment they try to halt it they become wicked demons. The more lenient they are the bigger the problem in the future.

Its the biggest migration of people since WW2. Imagine being a border guard trying to control a mass of hungry, thirsty, angry young men and trying to be humane enough to let through women with children.

The numbers are huge: 1/3 million in 2015 so far

A truly awful situation.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:32 pm

The chickens are coming home to roost ...

Tens of millions of European fled poverty and political turmoil on the old continent by emigrating to the new world in the 19th century.

Image

The injustice of it (beside what has been done to the refugees) is that the Anglo-Saxon countries that created the refugee crisis in the Middle East with their foreign wars are able to use robust means for defending themselves against the waves of refugees, while continental Europeans, who opposed these wars, have to bear the cost of it.

Germany is expecting 800,000 this year alone, while the UK only takes in a few thousands.

There never is a clear cut division between economic migrants and refugees; however, everyone from a bombed out city in the war zones of Iraq, Syria or Libya, has a right to be considered a refugee.

Michaeljc wrote:The process of vetting them and sending them back requires huge resources that will drain countries like Greece.

They are not vetting or sending them back; they just let them in so they can go to the North of Europe. Anyways, Greek construction and agriculture would probably collapse without slave labor from illegal immigrants.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:28 am

Personally, I am not addressing reasons for the crisis here

I am interested in what should be done and what can be done to resolve it. I would not enjoy being among those that have to make decisions as it is a lose:lose. It is already causing friction among European countries

All I see ahead is a very rocky road. A number of years back I predicted the same in relation to Syria shortly after their civil war erupted
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Pemako on Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:40 am

Michaeljc wrote:Personally, I am not addressing reasons for the crisis here


Fine, but unless we address the reasons, this will keep happening, again and again. At the very least the countries that drop bombs and pay for military operations should shoulder the burden of helping the refugees.
Last edited by Pemako on Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:23 am

Bitterness and blame do not solve a humanitarian crisis. Neither do ideals
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:43 pm

I just saw a (fictional) movie in which a worldwide microbial crisis "enabled" the disbandment and dissolution of military forces everywhere, so that the problem could be worked-on with every country's full resources dedicated to it. This is the movie, "Interstellar".

--Joe
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:39 pm

I hope you also got the "real" message of the movie Joe. :)
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:23 pm

fukasetsu wrote:I hope you also got the "real" message of the movie Joe. :)


And I was hoping that people would get the real message of the OP

Pass me my bull whip! :lol2:
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:00 pm

Michaeljc wrote:A number of years back I predicted the same in relation to Syria shortly after their civil war erupted

The civil war didn't just break out. The governments of the US, the UK and France have tried to topple the Syrian government for years. They have supported the opposition by arming and training the rebellion via proxies in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Jordan. The Turks have even cooperated with the extremists of the Islamic State to topple the Syrian government. Plans by the British government to bomb Syria were only narrowly defeated by parliament a couple of years ago.

It's the typical regime change routine that has also destabilized Ukraine and that has led us to the brink of another cold war.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:37 pm

Ok - I get it

Finding solutions to real-time issues gets thrown in the too-hard basket and degenerates into blame that solves nothing in relation to the problem at hand

Not everyone has that liberty. None of the decisions that have to be made will be nice. I would not like to be in their (decision -makers) shoes

Realism is not a popular path
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:06 am

Michaeljc wrote:Finding solutions to real-time issues gets thrown in the too-hard basket and degenerates into blame that solves nothing in relation to the problem at hand

How can we find solutions if we aren't even allowed to talk about what causes the conflict "in real-time"?

Is it too uncomfortable to talk about the actual causes?

How many refugees do you want Europe to absorb? Tens of millions? Hundreds of millions? I understand the Australians just put them on an island and don't accept anybody they don't want. The Americans have built a fence. Are those your solutions? And how do you think this is going to work in Europe?

There are those who have always wanted to torpedo European integration. With the refugees they have found another wedge to drive into Europe.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:41 am

Humbaba

Now we are getting somewhere :)

I am talking about dealing with the current crisis

Suppose for the moment that you are in charge of a Europe-wide policy - what would you do?

The 2 extremes are:

1: Open the door to unhindered migration

2: Impose a military blockaded to stop all migration
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:23 pm

Michael,

The binary choices you present are very far removed from any real political choices.

Ideally, I would want the US (and the UK) to do the honorable thing and take in all the refugees from the war zones it has created.

Alternately, the US could use its armed forces to undo some of the damage it has done by establishing a safe zone, roughly equivalent to the territory currently occupied by the Islamic State (IS), to allow all the persecuted and displaced people to live in peace in their own region. The US role would be for peacekeeping only while the UN administered the region until some sort of civilian rule can be established. Europe would provide humanitarian aid as needed and assist in building a civil society.

I hope our friends on the other side of the big pond understand that, as a European, I don't want Europe destroyed because of US imperialism.

The right to political asylum has marked European culture for centuries. We can easily take in all genuine political refugees, starting with Edward Snowden (if the US would only let us). Impoverished and bombed out rest-Germany took in 14 million refugees after the war and there are more than 30 million Muslims already living in the EU. However, to permanently resettle economic migrants form other parts of the world cannot be done through the backdoor. We need a political consensus for controlled immigration that does not exist at present.

While short term measures are needed to deal with the direct fallout from conflict, as long term measure, we need to correct the global market system that aims at maximizing profits while resulting in increasing inequality.

Europe can also try to stabilize neighboring regions through civilian partnership programs provided the US doesn't interfere to expand its influence or to roll-back the Russians.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:20 pm

Michaeljc wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:I hope you also got the "real" message of the movie Joe. :)


And I was hoping that people would get the real message of the OP

Pass me my bull whip! :lol2:


Sorry Mike, I suck at politics.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Pemako on Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:16 pm

Michaeljc wrote:Bitterness and blame do not solve a humanitarian crisis. Neither do ideals


Ok, a solution then. Those who create a problem should solve it. How about that?
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby another_being on Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:31 pm

Humbaba wrote: "...as long term measure, we need to correct the global market system that aims at maximizing profits while resulting in increasing inequality."

Yes, this is it. The reasons why migrants are leaving their countries must be explored at some point, if economic or because of violence, the source of the problem has to be addressed. I generally agree with Humbaba and think that gates should be open and no fences or walls created, figuratively and/or literally. Going from one very corrupt government/country to a slightly less corrupt government isn't going to work in the long run.
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:47 pm

Pemako wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:Bitterness and blame do not solve a humanitarian crisis. Neither do ideals


Ok, a solution then. Those who create a problem should solve it. How about that?


Everything creates everything, who do you want to pick?
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby partofit22 on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:20 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Pemako wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:Bitterness and blame do not solve a humanitarian crisis. Neither do ideals


Ok, a solution then. Those who create a problem should solve it. How about that?


Everything creates everything, who do you want to pick?


:lol2: That's awesome!
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Humbaba on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:29 am

The Belfast Telegraph reports that German police force had to ask Munich residents to stop bringing donations for refugees arriving by train Officers in Munich said they were 'overwhelmed' by the outpouring of help and support and had more than they needed.

---


Meet the German Couple Finding Roommates for Europe’s Refugees Native Germans and Austrians who want to pitch in are invited to sign up for Refugees Welcome and register their apartments with the service. After the potential roommates answer some questions about themselves and their space—how big is your open room? What languages do you speak?—Refugees Welcome tries to match them with compatiable immigrants through local aid organizations.

---


Countering the Hate: 'People Are Getting Involved in Tremendous Ways'

Around 800,000 refugees are expected to arrive in Germany this year, with the number of Syrians growing rapidly. Manfred Schmidt, Germany's top migration official, discusses how the country is coping with the massive influx.
(...)
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How many refugees can Germany still take in?

Schmidt: When it comes to the absorption of people who are fleeing persecution and require protection, there can be no upper ceiling.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are we prepared as a society to integrate so many Syrian refugees?

Schmidt: Yes, I am convinced of this. The German people are getting involved in tremendous ways. For every incident such as Heidenau (where an anti-refugee riot recently broke out), there are 100 or 200 people volunteering (to help refugees) to counter it. Incidentally, the Syrians I have met take the opportunity they have in Germany very seriously and are making a great effort. They know that their new lease on life is beginning
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Re: Europe's migrant crisis

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:17 am

When it comes to the absorption of people who are fleeing persecution and require protection, there can be no upper ceiling


Here lies the key phrase. Sooner or later all adults will have to be processed. There was a recent statement that the EU will accept migrants for Syria. Iraq and one other African country that I can't recall. Behind this statement is an inference that migrants from many other countries will not be accepted

This all comes down to an obligation on the part of countries who have signed relevant clauses of the Geneva convention. The big problem is within the processing and assessments. Looking at the obvious origin of many migrants coming by boat over the Mediterranean it is clear that they will be repatriated. Just wait until the media gets hold of those stories. Most are young men, not families. They will all have a story describing political persecution but I am certain many will in fact not qualify as genuine political asylum seekers. Throwing the doors wide open is craziness in my opinion. It is not going to happen and when the brakes go on the real controversy begins. I am certain that Germany will not accept anyone and everyone. There is also a legitimate concern about a wide open conduit for terrorists of the like of ISIS

Authorities are not talking about these issues publicly but you can bet your boots they are behind closed doors. Humanitarian work is always about a trade-off between positive and negative. If the net result is 75% positive it is acceptable

So many issues in life come down to the middle path

PS winter in Europe is not far off. What then?
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