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Are plants sentient beings?

Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:06 pm

H.,

Humbaba wrote: Biologically active soil is the basis for all life on the planet. The few inches of dirt under our feet are the most precious possession we have. Non-organic farming gradually destroys the life on this planet.

Sea-life would haggle with you on that point.

Thus, although what you say is patently false, it is not inconsiderably true in some certain major respects.

By the way, there are sea-vegetables that Humans can harvest, and of course a lot of sea animal-life, which can -- and does -- support Human populations very importantly.

I grew up along the N. American Atlantic coast, and fished for Striped Bass, Bluefish, Flounder, and Fluke, and grew tomatoes, string beans, and corn in a (fish-offal-fertilized) garden as a kid, in The Garden State.

I didn't start eating seaweed until I became interested in Japanese food in my late teens, though, and "Macrobiotic" eating, in college. ;)

--Joe
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:34 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Thus, although what you say is patently false, it is not inconsiderably true in some certain major respects.

I don't even understand this sentence. Best to keep to simple syntax.

It's been millions of years since our predecessors have left the sea to live on the land. The Oceans are over-fished and polluted. I mostly eat locally harvested fish and avoid some fish like salmon altogether. It's not just that they are genetically modified but they are also loaded with growth hormones and other drugs. The fish farms further pollute the seas.

No, I'm afraid for food we are mostly dependent on land resources. Fertile soil is also important for biological diversity and the mitigation of climate change.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:00 pm

H.,

Yes, of course for most Humans, farming on land is what supports the majority of nutritional needs of Humans and land-based ruminant herd-animals.

Although what you wrote ignores the importance of protein and vegetables from the seas, nonetheless, your point about the large importance of continental soil is well taken.

Seas also mitigate climate change by absorbing about half the additional CO2 available in the atmosphere. But, acidification of seas militates against formation of limestone, which would otherwise efficiently passivate CO2 (remove it from the atmosphere to form "stone", from shells of sea animals).

--Joe

ps EDIT -- of course, the way that farming the land will be made less vital is via the increasing reliance on hydroponic production of vegetable and fruit and legume and fungi foods for Humans. This is very efficient, and is done even in cities. When done in cities, the transport costs of bringing produce to market then is almost zero, since it has only to go to the nearest grocers in town who contract to buy the foods, only a few km away, who then sell to local consumers. Multi-story dedicated "farms" are probably the way to go, there, involving no tilled soil at all, but perhaps 20-storey or taller glass-walled buildings. Good to keep an eye toward these new developments, as well as upon our 10000 year old methods, which I think some say are becoming compromised, and unreliable due to climate changes, and of ever lower quality in their content of nutrients and flavor(s) due to soil depletions not augmented by traditional farmers by addition of minerals, via decomposed granite, or etc., nor by crop-rotation, and, instead, suffering a faithful insistence on monoculture. Well, live and learn, I hope. Somewhat optimistic! But, what a different face of food production may be coming to show itself more commonly! Maybe necessary, for Spaceship Earth... . I think so.

Humbaba wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Thus, although what you say is patently false, it is not inconsiderably true in some certain major respects.

I don't even understand this sentence. Best to keep to simple syntax.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:52 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Although what you wrote ignores the importance of protein and vegetables from the seas, ...

The study is not about protein. It is about soil degradation and the resulting environmental destruction, extinction of species and climate change.

Seas also mitigate climate change by absorbing about half the additional CO2 available in the atmosphere.

The study is about sustainable land management to mitigate climate change, and the like. The emissions sequestered or emitted by sea surfaces is not substantially influenced by human usages of the oceans. In other words, fish farms don't plant forests or cover crops on the ocean surfaces that would be able to sequester additional green house gases.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:01 am

H.,

Humbaba wrote:In other words, fish farms don't plant forests or cover crops on the ocean surfaces that would be able to sequester additional green house gases.

Right, of course not. No one relies on "fish farms" having anything to do with fossil carbon (re-)sequestration. Shelled sea animals help with that. And they are mostly VERY tiny, mostly invisible to the naked eye. LOTS of them in a liter of water. But ocean acidification is not good news for them, nor us.

--Joe

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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:59 pm

Allan Savory explains why grazing animals are important for preventing desertification, alleviating poverty and socials conflict and for reversing climate change:

Allan Savory: How to fight desertification and reverse climate change
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby littletsu on Sun May 22, 2016 10:42 am

I wholeheartedly recommend watching this movie called Cowspiracy for a different angle on this matter.
The movie actually mentions Allan Savory, and well, not in a very good light : ) (As responsible for the slaughter of 40 000 elephants in Africa.)

It's basically about how animal agriculture is the biggest environmental threat. It is not a vegan propaganda, by the way.

http://www.cowspiracy.com/

(Alternatively, you can watch it for free here with Hungarian subs .) and bad quality of course):
http://indavideo.hu/video/Cowspiracy_-_ ... ideoplayer
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby HenriettaSwang on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:37 pm

We have long known that children who grow up with animals on the farm are healthier than children who have grown up in the city. Now it is scientifically proven:

Farm dust and endotoxin protect against allergy through A20 induction in lung epithelial cells

Growing up on a dairy farm protects children from allergy, hay fever, and asthma. A mechanism linking exposure to this endotoxin (bacterial lipopolysaccharide)–rich environment with protection has remained elusive. Here we show that chronic exposure to low-dose endotoxin or farm dust protects mice from developing house dust mite (HDM)–induced asthma. Endotoxin reduced epithelial cell cytokines that activate dendritic cells (DCs), thus suppressing type 2 immunity to HDMs. Loss of the ubiquitin-modifying enzyme A20 in lung epithelium abolished the protective effect. A single-nucleotide polymorphism in the gene encoding A20 was associated with allergy and asthma risk in children growing up on farms. Thus, the farming environment protects from allergy by modifying the communication between barrier epithelial cells and DCs through A20 induction.


If you love your children, let them play in the cow shed.


Well, I used to live in a village but ironically I have a corn allergy (http://stopallergyguide.com/corn-allergy/). It is a congenital disease and doesn't have any connections with me living on the farm. It appears most often children suffer from corn allergy, which is regarded to be a quite spread problem but one of the most complicated. The reasons can be due to eating corn grains or corn protein, which serve as allergens.

But I agree that farm is really good place to raise your children. :)
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby A Philosopher on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:06 pm

Humbaba wrote:Here is some more data about the life vegans want to destroy:

According to Gaia by James Lovelock, in the US, the average human biomass is 1.8 kg per hectare, while the animal organic mass in soil is 6,350 kg per hectare. That is 353 times more. For Germany, Herwig Pommeresche gives as an average value 10,000 kg of animal biomass per hectare of land in his book Humusphäre. He notes that very fertile soil may contain up to 8,400 kg of earth worms per hectare, which is only a small portion of total soil organisms. Most of these soil organisms are killed with inorganic fertilizers or by agrochemicals in conventional farming.

Thus, an organic farmer with 10 hectares of fertile land manages 100 tons of Edaphone (living animal biomass) in the soil (corresponding to 1,000 pigs, or 200 cows), which cannot live without organic fertilization with animal manure.

Holy shit! (you can take that literally)


Soem of the results of these studies were debunked. The main point is that vegans need much less land to produce food we need (because the middle step, i.e., plants, is eliminated). Similarly, vegan life style requires much less energy. In effect, vegans put much less burden on the environment than if we reverted to a non-vegan life style.

Humbaba wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh is vegan. The late Soen Master Kusan Sunim was vegan. Soen Master Seo Kyung-bo Sunim was a vegan. Chan Master Hsu Yun was vegan. Of course there are others. It's highly dubious to say these people want to destroy life...


Did they

a) choose a vegetarian diet, or

b) propagate a vegan ideology by concealing the negative environmental effect of modern non-organic farming with manipulated statistics?

Millions of Buddhists live on a diet comprising animal products. Do they have a worse karma than vegetarians?


The environmental effects of vegan life style are the least burdensome on the environment. Specifically, they cause less suffering and damage to life than any other life style.

By the way, I do not care whether or not it is a good karma. I care about suffering and harms my actions may cause. For me, it's an attempt of conducting myself in a kind and compassionate way. If there is some good karma in it. so be it.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby A Philosopher on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:08 pm

Chrisd wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:
The raising of animals for food has always been considered to make bad karma, even by the old Buddhist traditions.


Well - that's me gone :blush:

I was doomed from the time I killed and butchered my first sheep at age 12 :hide:


If people did not kill animals then how could we have built society? Even sustained the human race.
Same w/ plants.

Is human society then based on bad karma? Should we destroy it and return it to the plants and animals?

Only way human society seems to flourish by the way is by putting all other animals in prisons of sorts. Zoo's etc.

You really wonder where these karma notions come from then. Is this the spiritual upper class trying to maintain a position of moral righteousness opposed to the lower classes? The ones that actually do all the work and provide them with food?

I'm open to interpretations :lol2:


In the past, certain actions were necessities.
In the present, the same actions are not necessities.

We certainly cannot avoid killing or causing harms.
But we can try to cause as little harm as possible.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby organizational on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:46 pm

How are you with the junk food?
When you eat you see that they just melt in your mouth and there remains nothing to swallow.They are all fabrications and all fabrications are tricky in this time.
It is very hard to find food that remain natural still.

Same with the macaroni (spaghetti).
It is hard to find real macaroni.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby A Philosopher on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:47 am

organizational wrote:How are you with the junk food?


I look at it sometimes...

When you eat you see that they just melt in your mouth and there remains nothing to swallow.They are all fabrications and all fabrications are tricky in this time.
It is very hard to find food that remain natural still.

Same with the macaroni (spaghetti).
It is hard to find real macaroni.
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