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Are plants sentient beings?

Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:00 pm

Michael,

"Decent", very probably. "Impressive", I doubt! But, if so, I'll be ...impressed! Stay tuned... . :)

And thanks for the "tip".

I usually start near the base of the totem-pole and taste my way up (keeping notes about what's been what). ;-)

--Joe

Michaeljc wrote:I hope that at $8 you'r going to get something decent Joe

When I am trying to impress a dinner guest I buy in the $15 range. Not sure if the formula works though :lol2:
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:05 pm

Note that the very "cold" deep-ocean upwelling Humboldt Current in the N. Pacific brushes the California coast, causing coastal fog


Their winter may be a little different this year. El Nino with warming of the Eastern Pacific looks for real. Hawaii has just experienced its warmest July on record. We in the South have had one of the coldest
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:58 am

Since the beginning of agriculture, sedentary farmers all over the World have always used simultaneously both animal and crop farming. Before the first farmers arrived, the hunter gatherers were omnivorous too, living both by the hunted animals and the root and berries they could gather. Humans and their predecessors have genetically evolved as omnivores for millions of years. To arbitrary limit our choice of food to one source only cannot be considered as either healthy or natural.

It is only since the colonial conquest and the globalization of the markets that followed in its wake that the international division of labor has resulted in specialized large scale crop-only or animal-only farms in order to maximize profits. The colonial conquest has destroyed soil and natural ecosystems all over the World. The introduction of the European mold-board plow for deep plowing has destroyed tropical soils. Vast mono-cropping plantations for producing commodities for rich countries have destroyed ecosystems and impoverished people in the 3rd world. The plowing up of grazing land by the early settlers in the US for growing crops has irrevocably destroyed soils and depleted water resources. The process of industrializing farming first started in the US in the 19th century, while in many parts of Europe traditional integrated animal/crop farming continues until the present day. That is probably why Americans associate animal farming with large scale ranches and feed lots. While the pictures of animals in these farms appeal to the emotions of people, city dwellers are unaware of the terrible destruction caused by large-scale inorganic crop farming, which results in tremendous environmental destruction and climate change.

The only way humans can survive on this planet is by converting to a sustainable development in all fields, but especially in farming. There is nobody in the sustainable farming community who would imagine that crop-only inorganic farming without animals can be sustainable. Nobody questions the fact that integrated animal/crop farming is the only way for farming to be sustainable on the whole.

To equate the excesses of industrial-scale farming with animal husbandry is absurd. The excesses of capitalist exploitation can only be regulated by government responsible to a political aware electorate, not by abolishing animals. We need to limit greed not punish the animals for our greed.

This is doubly absurd if the same people tell us that there are ways of organic farming without animals that can feed the world without given the slightest indication of how this is supposed to work. Without farm animals, our food can only be grown with inorganic fertilizers, GMOs and the accompanying large range of toxic agrochemicals. We can regulate the abuses in industrial farming but Vegan farming cannot be organic.

Since the beginning of history, the cities have developed culture as a means for dominating agriculture and nature. Farmers and country communities have always been despised by the citizens as being uncultivated, stupid and living in squalor and dirt. The citizen requires a sterile and clean environment in which all life has been eliminated by detergents, antibiotics, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and a whole range of other toxic chemicals. The dung heap full of life is anathema. Biologically active soil from which all life comes is just some dirt that can be destroyed. Yet, humans cannot live a single day without all these microbes and other organism we are so determined to destroy. There are billions of microorganisms in our body, especially in our gut without which food cannot be processed. Genetically, humans consist of up to 80% of microbes. The microbes that colonize our gut are mirrored by the microbes that colonize the feeder roots of plants, both serve to process food for humans and for plants. How does the citizen think we can survive by killing all of that?

When I grew up on our family farm, my favorite place was between the cow shed and the dung heap. The rich odors from the animals and the dung filled the air when the afternoon sun burned down on the dung heap. The microbial exposure during our early years protects us from allergies and the various other autoimmune diseases that are increasing in all industrial societies. As kids, we used to get caked in mud from top to bottom, to the great chagrin of my mother who had to scrub us clean. When my dog gets full of mud all over and smells like a sewer, it isn’t to annoy me or to ruin my carpet. No, the dog instinctively knows that the mud provides protection against insects and disease.

Vegans are thus super citizens in turning their back on nature. Knowingly or not, Vegan propagandists serve the industrial system of exploitation to allow even greater mechanization and specialization in crop-only systems in which animals and all natural processes are eliminated. The aim is to maximize profits by processing mass-produced cheap commodities into food-like substances with high profit margins.

Humans already use ¾ of the Earth’s land surface. Much of the rest is not habitable. If animals are taken out of farming, the destruction of life on this planet will be devastating. It’s not only the farm animals but also innumerable beings that depend on them that will be eliminated. A fertile pasture for one cow can support billions of living organisms with a total mass equaling 10 cows.

In nature like in farming, animals and plants complement each other. Both are needed. And if all those small organism and plants don’t have a voice we can hear it doesn’t mean they don’t have a right to exist.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:31 am

Humbaba

I find your post a bit extreme. A vegan or anyone else can eat what they like for all I care. Indians eat rats, Thais - cockroaches, Filipinos - frogs

Its only when diet turns into a religion and people take the moral high-ground and criticise other's or their practices that I get perturbed. Thankfully, these people are a minority. In my experience, it is usually a symptom of some other psychological hang-up

If parents can raise a healthy family who cares what they eat?

Cheers

m
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:19 am

Michaeljc wrote:A vegan or anyone else can eat what they like for all I care. Indians eat rats, Thais - cockroaches, Filipinos - frogs

That is exactly what I said previously in this thread. "Everyone has the right to chose a vegetarian diet" or whatever. Your dietary choices concern nobody but yourself.

However, that is not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about Vegan propaganda using selective data to propagate a biased picture, i.e., Veganism with an -ism as an ideology (what you call religion), which is at the cutting edge of contemporary city culture that has served as cultural hegemony to subjugate the country since the rise of the first cities more than 5,000 years ago. Thus, Veganism issues from a city culture that has been instrumental to underpin empire building, colonial expansion and corporate global market penetration. Make no mistake about it, the corporations stand ready to provide Vegans with new ranges of mass-produced food with the very same methods of industrial mass production that is responsible for most of current environmental destruction. Thus, animals, biological soil, manure, compost and all those messy farmyard things that don't produce big corporate profits and don't comply with the sense of city cleanliness can be eliminated to facilitate mass production by chemical farming and thus increase profit.

Michaeljc wrote:I find your post a bit extreme.

Please let me know what it is exactly you find extreme.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:25 am

I do agree that the power of city culture is imposing its self on all groups in society. When I did some human geography papers in the 1990's touch-feely PC was the buzz in the block. These are the people now in power. Today a fertilizer rep came. I suggested that he jump on the side of the 4-wheel motor cycle so I could take him around the farm. He declined saying that if his company found out about it he would get fired. Wow, that the first time that's happened.

It is now illegal in NZ to carry a pillion on 4-wheeler. We can also be fined severely if we are caught riding one on our own farms without a helmet. There are inspectors from contracted companies roaming the countryside. Its a major industry. We, in the back country ignore it. Fuck them. If an inspector arrives I will just ride into the distance. I may even wave - goodbye.

I don't feel any threat from vegans and I cant see them driving anything.

I am reminded of a story involving my second son. He went into an engineering retailer wanting hand-cleaner (like for workshop grease). The attendant said "Well , we have got this latest product. It's non-toxic" "Nah" says Joe " Give me the toxic one, that is sure to work!" :lol2:

I brought them up well

When you find a slug in your lettuce then you know that it's organic :heya:

Now to show this is not Off Topic...............? I'll think about it. I know, it goes something like this: "forgive them, they are ignorant sentient beings believing they will save me" :peace:
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Seeker242 on Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:57 am

Natural sustainable animal farming is far nicer than feedlots! Too bad it simply can't keep up with the current demands for the products. Natural sustainable animal farming for everyone, is just an ideal that simply cannot be realistically achieved. It's not even an option. You can't produce 128 billion pounds of beef annually with natural sustainable farming. It's impossible.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:09 pm

Michaeljc wrote:It is now illegal in NZ to ...

There is a famous text (or is it book?) by a sustainable US farmer entitled "everything I want to do is illegal". You probably know it. It well expresses our dilemma that, as individuals, we want to do things that are sensible, sustainable, and all the rest, which we are forbidden to do because society tends to abuse rules for the sake of profit. Thus, we are paying for the few who abuse the rules.

I don't feel any threat from vegans and I cant see them driving anything.

No threat from individual vegans, but there is a tendency in city culture starting with Justus v. Liebig's discovery of synthetic fertilization, the replacement of draft animals by machines, the replacement of organic matter with NPK fertilization, the destruction of biomass by the WC, asphalt, concrete, golf sites, ..., of which Veganism, as an ideology (I'm not attacking anybody) is the last straw to make sustainable farming impossible.

Read Gramsci on Cultural Hegemony. I'm not a Marxist, far from it. But I can accept a sensible idea no matter who says it. People are not independent free agents, they are manipulated by what they read in the newspapers, by what the powers-that-be (from the government or the corporations) want us to know. Thus, the prevailing ideology with increasing article on vegans appearing all around are a sign of the times.

When you find a slug in your lettuce then you know that it's organic :heya:

When you find a salad in may garden, it means I have killed hundreds of them. That's how I know how many are killed in chemical farming.

"forgive them, they are ignorant sentient beings believing they will save me" :peace:

As I said, it's not up to me to forgive them. Nature doesn't forgive or forget.

It's no problem to me personally, I'll be dead soon anyways. But there is no reason why I should not say what I know to be a fact.

Tell me, is NZ as green as Ireland or is that just my idea?

Cheers,

PS: You didn't answer my question.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Michaeljc on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:17 am

Heee - here ya go:

Today I attended a poster presentation day in the city of Hamilton (100,000) for the ‘Science Extension’ in primary schools program. It is an initiative sponsored by NIWA. My granddaughter and a friend were select from her class to participate. I was blown away at the standard coming from 11 and 12 yr olds. There were several hundred posters. Each had to identify a research subject and present using the standard scientific method.

I just happened to look at one poster dealing with pollution in the of Wiakato river that runs through Hamilton. It is fed by a large lake and runs several hundred Km to the sea. Around the lake (Taupo) and along its banks, upstream of Hamilton, are hundreds of high producing dairy farms based primarily around pasture (grass). This region is considered to be the highest dairy producing grassland in the world. They run up to 1.5 cows/acre outdoors all the year round and don't need imported grains. The average herd size is 400.

Two students tested turbidity (clarity) up and downstream of the city. There conclusion was that most of the contamination downstream of Hamilton came from that same city.

Am I surprised? Even 12 yr-olds can work it out :blush:
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Seeker242 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:44 am

More than 1 acre of rainforest is lost, every second, because people need pasture for cattle. This results in losing some 135 plant, animal and insect species every day, or some 50,000 species a year. When it comes to increasing grass fed beef production, this is how it's being done...
:EEK:
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:28 am

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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:29 am

Image1 (1).png


Here lies the greatest destruction of tropical diversity. Palm oil is used mostly in developed countries in a huge range of processed food and cosmetics.

It is grown in plantations after the natural cover is cleared and burnt. Note that global production has almost tripled in just 15 years
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Seeker242 on Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:29 pm

Michaeljc wrote:
Image1 (1).png


Here lies the greatest destruction of tropical diversity. Palm oil is used mostly in developed countries in a huge range of processed food and cosmetics.



Palm oil is certainly destructive. It's production has doubled in the last decade. Many vegans avoid palm oil as much as possible for that very reason. Wild orangutans are are an endangered species and are being further endangered by palm oil production. Of course they aren't the only ones. The Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) is a fair start, but it still falls way short of honest and meaningful conservation regarding palm oil production. Many have called for significant reforms and are still calling for them. The RSPO is accused of dragging it's feet on the issue and for good reason!

The number of head of cattle in the global herd is not a equivalent comparison the amount of deforestation. If it was, then the deforestation regarding it would have peaked in the 70's, but it did not. When it comes to what has caused the greatest amount of destruction, it is not palm oil. Cropland, the majority for animal feed, and pasture creation has been the most destructive.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:33 pm

We have long known that children who grow up with animals on the farm are healthier than children who have grown up in the city. Now it is scientifically proven:

Farm dust and endotoxin protect against allergy through A20 induction in lung epithelial cells

Growing up on a dairy farm protects children from allergy, hay fever, and asthma. A mechanism linking exposure to this endotoxin (bacterial lipopolysaccharide)–rich environment with protection has remained elusive. Here we show that chronic exposure to low-dose endotoxin or farm dust protects mice from developing house dust mite (HDM)–induced asthma. Endotoxin reduced epithelial cell cytokines that activate dendritic cells (DCs), thus suppressing type 2 immunity to HDMs. Loss of the ubiquitin-modifying enzyme A20 in lung epithelium abolished the protective effect. A single-nucleotide polymorphism in the gene encoding A20 was associated with allergy and asthma risk in children growing up on farms. Thus, the farming environment protects from allergy by modifying the communication between barrier epithelial cells and DCs through A20 induction.


If you love your children, let them play in the cow shed.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:22 pm

Humbaba wrote:If you love your children, let them play in the cow shed.


LOL! :)X Just remind them to keep their shoes on in the shed.

_/|\_
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:52 pm

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:LOL! :)X Just remind them to keep their shoes on in the shed.

Not necessary unless there is a hard concrete floor.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:30 am

Gents, et al.,

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:
Humbaba wrote:If you love your children, let them play in the cow shed.

LOL! :)X Just remind them to keep their shoes on in the shed.

Chao-Chou would put his sandals on his head, for the poor cat, and cattle (no matter what's underfoot; or maybe especially), and walk out. :lol2:

--Joe
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby partofit22 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:57 am

Cowspiracy is trending at #7 on Netflix- We watched it- It's interesting-

From http://www.cowspiracy.com/

Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret is a groundbreaking feature-length environmental documentary following intrepid filmmaker Kip Andersen as he uncovers the most destructive industry facing the planet today – and investigates why the world’s leading environmental organizations are too afraid to talk about it.

Animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, water consumption and pollution, is responsible for more greenhouse gases than the transportation industry, and is a primary driver of rainforest destruction, species extinction, habitat loss, topsoil erosion, ocean “dead zones,” and virtually every other environmental ill. Yet it goes on, almost entirely unchallenged.

As Andersen approaches leaders in the environmental movement, he increasingly uncovers what appears to be an intentional refusal to discuss the issue of animal agriculture, while industry whistleblowers and watchdogs warn him of the risks to his freedom and even his life if he dares to persist.

As eye-opening as Blackfish and as inspiring as An Inconvenient Truth, this shocking yet humorous documentary reveals the absolutely devastating environmental impact large-scale factory farming has on our planet, and offers a path to global sustainability for a growing population.

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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:25 pm

Land degradation costs the world up to $10.6tn a year, report says

Study says effective land management will be critical in meeting sustainable development goals of alleviating poverty and ensuring long-term food security

More than half of the world’s arable land is moderately or severely degraded, according to a report published on Tuesday by the Economics of Land Degradation (ELD) Initiative(pdf). The report estimates the cost of this environmental destruction, not only from lost agricultural production and diminished livelihoods, but also from the lost value of ecosystem services formerly provided by the land, including water filtration, erosion prevention, nutrient cycling and the provision of clean air.

Land degradation – decreased vegetation cover and increased soil erosion – also means that land is less able to store carbon, contributing to climate change. Land use changes represent the second biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions after fossil fuel combustion, the study says.

“Burgeoning populations with shifting demographics and distributions are increasing the demands on land to produce food, energy, water, resources and livelihoods,” the report says.

Desertification, the result of climate change, is having a profound effect on migration. Karmenu Vella, European commissioner for Environment, Maritime Affairs and Fisheries, said that land degradation and desertification is forcing hundreds of thousands to move from their homes. A study by the UN’s Convention to Combat Desertification (UNCCD), which was cited by the authors of the ELD report, found that the process may drive an estimated 50 million people from their homes in the next 10 years.

“Climate change is even one of the root causes of a new migration phenomenon. Climate refugees will become a new challenge – if we do not act swiftly,” European commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said last week.

If sustainable land management was rolled out around the world, as much as $75.6tn could be added to the global economy every year through jobs and increased agricultural output, the report said.

As much as 2bn hectares of arable land could be rehabilitated and used for agricultural production, according to Louise Baker, coordinator of external relations at the UNCCD.

“We should look at realigning the incentive structure that we have away from incentives that degrade the land to those that promote sustainable management,” said Baker, who listed agroforestry, terracing on sloping lands, water harvesting and appropriate crop selection as examples of good land management.

The report notes that the economic gains from arable land are often overlooked in favour of foreign investment or land grabs. “This divergence is likely to widen as land scarcity increases and land becomes increasingly seen as a ‘commodity’,” the report says.

The sustainable development goals (SDGs), due to be agreed in New York later this month, will seek to “halt and reverse land degradation” over the next 15 years.

Boosting the protection of land would advance other elements of the post-2015 development agenda, said Zafar Adeel, director of the UN’s University Institute for Water, Environment and Health.

“We could very easily argue that sustainable land management is very relevant to achieving half of the SDGs, if not more,” Adeel said, listing food security, poverty reduction and water resource management as goals that would benefit from better land management.

The report says: “Ensuring the implementation of more sustainable land management is of critical importance considering the vast environmental and socio-economic challenges we are collectively facing – from food, water, and energy security and malnutrition, to climate change, a burgeoning global population, and reduction in biodiversity, ecosystems, and ecosystem services.”

The report is the culmination of four years’ research by 30 research and policy institutions led by the UN University’s Institute for Water, Environment and Health and the Consultative Group for International Agricultural Research’s (CGIAR) Research Programme on Dryland Systems. The research was funded by Germany’s Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development, the European Commission and the Korean Forest Service.


There is an urgent need for sustainability in farming and other fields of the economy.
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Re: Are plants sentient beings?

Postby Humbaba on Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:57 pm

I have said this often enough, but in today’s society nothing is given any credence unless it has the official approval of the scientific priesthood. Biologically active soil is the basis for all life on the planet. The few inches of dirt under our feet are the most precious possession we have. Non-organic farming gradually destroys the life on this planet.

I quote from the introductory chapter of the above cited report:

"All human life ultimately depends on land including the soil and water found there.

From land, food is grown, on it protective shelters are raised, and through and across it the fresh water we drink is purified and delivered. Land provides humans with the means to live, and from the first steps tread upon it, has been a patient provider of vital resources. But at the start of the 21st century, our lands are no longer able to keep up with the pressures placed on its limited resources. Increasing misuse and demands for its goods are resulting in rapidly intensifying desertification and land degradation globally – an issue of growing importance for all people and at all scales. Burgeoning populations with shifting demographics and distributions are increasing the demands on land to produce food, energy, water, resources, and livelihoods. Environmental shifts induced through stressors (e.g., climate change) and dissolution of ecosystem stability are further decreasing the ability of land to respond resiliently to natural or anthropogenic pressures.

60 per cent of the Earth’s land surface is managed, and approximately 60 per cent of that is agricultural land use. Estimates of the extent of land degradation vary, but approximately one third of the world’s arable land is thought to have been affected by degradation and desertification to date, indicating that it is widespread, on the rise, and occurring in all land cover types and agroecologies, and especially so in drylands. Many degrading practices can be linked to the ‘tragedy of the commons’ in which the demands of individual interest take precedence over shared, sustainable use of land resources, leading to its overexploitation.

Land degradation jeopardises ecosystem services globally, including agricultural products, clean air, fresh water, disturbance regulation, climate regulation, recreational opportunities, and fertile soils. Novel estimates from the ELD Initiative of the global loss of ecosystem service values (ESV) place the cost between USD 6.3 and 10.6 trillion annually."
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