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"Wabi-Sabi"

Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Marcel,

Yow! More "crowded" than a "used-car lot" in USA!

Netherlands-people are so smart about transportation. We could all learn.

thanks; remarkable photo!

--Joe


partofit22 wrote:I agree, great pic!


Thanks, well yes you could learn, but more importantly from our health care, when we do and don't send someone to prison, and for how long, and how we treat them in prison and more importantly after they're realeased (which costs are included in health care, it's using tax money smartly)
there are more points ofcourse.

We have the tendency to look around the globe and we do learn from the USA or Denmark, or Germany or wherever.

You are smart too, because when we got notice of how your police uses "bait cars" we put that idea on bicycles and immediately the theft of bikes plummeted.

So we have a fantastic idea now, why don't we bring your entire senate, house of... etc here for a year and we send all dutch politicians/legislator to the USA!
That way we can wabi-sabi each others country! :daisy:
Everyone for President!
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby partofit22 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:43 pm

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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:06 am

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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:24 pm

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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:36 pm

Teresa - would you like an explanation for the hole in the rock, or leave it as an intriguing mystery?
cheers
m
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby partofit22 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:21 am

Yes, Michael, Id appreciate an explanation-- thank you-
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:44 am

Teresa -

It is due to a process called bioturbation. The rock looks to be a calcareous sandstone (a type of limestone). All calcareous rocks form on the seabed and are comprised of a mix of rock materials (gravels, sands, silts) and marine organism remains (shells and skeletons).

When on the seabed they are soft sediments. Burrowing organisms burrow into these sediments extracting the organic components as their food. Discarded materials are deposited behind them as they bore. Any remaining void is infilled through natural processes. The white ring is probably calcite – pure calcium carbonate that has precipitated out of calcium-rich fluids. This is the same material found in stalagmites. It can also possibly be quartz (natural glass) which precipitates in a similar manner.

To become a hard rock, burial to at least 2 km depth is required to inflict the required pressure and temperature. Then, uplift and erosion must occur to expose the rock on the modern land surface.

The organism that created this feature is probably now extinct. Her body-width size would approximate the diameter of the outer circle. The rock is no less than 30 million years old.

I give this explanation with a 90% degree of certainty. I have also seen such features caused by de-gassing but opt for the first explanation.

I did my MSc in Earth Science on these rock types.

Cheers

M
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby partofit22 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:25 pm

Michael, that's absolutely fascinating, thank you- I didn't have the foggiest idea except that it might have been eroded by water dripping on it- I came across it while walking along the river- My grand daughter will be delighted to learn what you've shared- She's one of those people with an eye for such things, be it in the creek, the river, the woods, she always finds something -- and rather quickly-
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:58 pm

Michaeljc wrote:I did my MSc in Earth Science on these rock types.

Fascinating scenario, Michael, thank you for the insights.

How I wish there had been a professional geologist along on the occasions when I was observing at various mountain-top observatories around the world. The world underfoot was as interesting as the one above.

One fascinating place was the north of Chile. Rock there at 2200 meters, for example, was purplish-red rhyolite and tuff, and was formed in hexagonal columns, from cooling of the compacted volcanic ash, and full of breccia-like and conglomerate bits of stone, lava bits, and some gas-vesicle holes, and a few crystalline encrustations. I've read that the origin of this formation is from ancient mega-volcanoes which spewed in the entire desert-north of Chile. It extends for hundreds of miles N-S.

And on the Big Island of Hawai'i, on Mauna Kea about 1000 meters below the summit, there is a glacial moraine! (yes, well within the tropics, at latitude 19.8 N), probably dating to the last age of glaciation(15000 - 20000 years ago?): Big boulders in a giant boulder-field! (of volcanic rock of course), quite a sight as you're driving up the Mt. from sea-level in a 4-wheel drive vehicle, windows shut against the dust of the unpaved road (but it gets in anyway). No roo-bars needed on the cars, at least!

In daytimes if you don't mind going a bit short on sleep, it's good to hike the mountain(s) and see the geology: "Geologizing". :tongueincheek: "Botanizing" is good, too, as mountain foliage and flowers are unique.

Good to see you posting. Thanks again for the info and insights on Teresa's intriguing objet d'art, made by ...Nature! Talk about "wabi-sabi"... . ;)

--Joe
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby partofit22 on Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:54 pm

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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby partofit22 on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:02 pm

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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:22 pm

Teresa

Your latest photos are bioturbation too. In this case you are seeing the boring traces from side-on. In your first photo you are seeing one from end-on.

Some scientists have devoted their entire lives studying these "trace fossils". They have names for each style and can only conclude what these different critters looked like.

If you are interested in these rocks - go to a drug store and ask for a small squeeze bottle of 15% hydrochloric acid in water. Carbonate rocks will fizz when you apply a drop. Any other rock type will not. It is not too dangerous to handle.

Cheers

M
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:38 pm

Michael, and Teresa,

Michaeljc wrote:If you are interested in these rocks - go to a drug store and ask for a small squeeze bottle of 15% hydrochloric acid in water. Carbonate rocks will fizz when you apply a drop. Any other rock type will not. It is not too dangerous to handle.

Right, Michael, good idea. The HCl is also stomach-acid.

I think I read that human stomach acid has a pH of about 1.0! No wonder our stomach- and gut-lining cells are the cells that regenerate most often, about once per day, I think! But they're used to it, and they're good at it. ;)

Teresa, 5-percent VINEGAR solution is probably a good-enough weak-acid with which to test the rocks for being Carbonate, or not.

I am dubious about whether any USA pharmacist will dispense HCl unprescribed, at any strength. But ...any "Home Depot" store, or "Lowe's Home Center" store, or generic hardware store in USA will sell you a big GALLON bottle of "Muriatic Acid" (HCl), but be careful, it is a STRONG concentration (dilution... ), at 31.5 percent HCl, in water. This would cost about 10 dollars or less, with sales tax. You can test a lot of rocks with that! But it's useful in swimming-pool upkeep, too, to keep the water pH at the optimum level. And you can use the Muriatic Acid too for cleaning (dissolving... ) of hard-water scale buildup on bathroom or kitchen porcelain, and metal. You probably know all this... .

Careful when you POUR the concentrate from the gallon jug: it's FUMING, and the white fumes are bad to inhale (and HURT). One must NOT pour water into the concentrate, but ONLY pour the concentrate into water. Else, the mixture splatters (due to instantaneous heating) when water is wrongly poured into concentrated acid. Anyway, wear enclosed goggles to protect the eyes when making a dilution, or when pouring the concentrate OR a diluted solution.

Bottom line: use Vinegar instead! Be safe. Live to dig fossils another day! :)X

;)

--Joe

ps Teresa, you could SELL those fossils on eBay for a pretty-penny, I'm quite sure. Open the bidding at $100?, and it may go pretty high.
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby partofit22 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Michael, thank you again and Joe for the advice-

The first was sort of a boulder, the second was not- The second was in a riverbed also- There were many rocks in that general area with sort of a similar key looking shape on one end- I got the second fossil for my grand daughter- She has an ability/skill for finding such things -- I got lucky- Shes 9- She is always finding stuff- I wouldnt use the acid .. :)
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 am

Bottom line: use Vinegar instead! Be safe. Live to dig fossils another day!


Vinegar does not work. 10% solution of hydrochloric acid does and is the industry standard. One needs an instant, visible response. The acid test is used in the field by every pimple-faced first-year geo student in the world. Used sensibly it is of no danger.

http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml

http://www.geo-tools.com/supplies/acid-dropper-bottle

Cheers

m
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:22 am

Michael, and all aspiring Rock-Jocks,

Michaeljc wrote:
Bottom line: use Vinegar instead! Be safe. Live to dig fossils another day!

Vinegar does not work. 10% solution of hydrochloric acid does and is the industry standard. One needs an instant, visible response. The acid test is used in the field by every pimple-faced first-year geo student in the world. Used sensibly it is of no danger.

Vinegar works on Limestone, I can attest, as can almost all kids in USA who attended schools like mine in the 1950s and '60s.

I'd opt for HCl myself, but I'm trained and experienced in safely handling dangerous reagents. I won't encourage folks on public websites to use HCl at any strength. This is solely out of a concern for safety, and especially when there's no "industrial" need, and just a desire to see if there's a "fizz", or not.

Granted, HCl is sold in hardware stores here as "Muriatic Acid" at 31.5 percent strength by weight. So, anybody can easily get some, and cheaply, without filling-out HAZMAT forms. Careful how you use it!

But if you use a weak organic acid like vinegar, and, whether it works or not, you can always use the rest of it on your salad, or when dying eggs at Easter. The main thing is you'll be SAFE.

--Joe
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:38 am

Joe -

Wine will dissolve pearls. Rain water dissolves limestone. If you immerse limestone in vinegar the calcium carbonate will dissolve over time but that does not make vinegar a suitable diagnostic tool for the geologist . The geologist places one drop ( the amount one may use in eye-drop medication) of hydrochloric acid on the rock. If it is a carbonate clear visible fizzing can be observed. I have tried vinegar in the past. It don't work. Oh - that it did. I ran out of acid while working in the East African Rift Valley. So frustrating. I felt naked.

Also - I don't know what others feel but I am tired of being told what is safe for me and what is not. All part of the modern nanny state. :blush:

Its an acid! don't drink it, don't get it in your eyes, avoid skin contact - although this mix does not burn the same as sulfuric acid (I know) That's is so difficult to work out?

Cheers

m
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby Larry on Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:44 am

Michaeljc wrote:I don't know what others feel but I am tired of being told what is safe for me and what is not.

Unsafe comment! May offend! :hide: :heya:
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Re: "Wabi-Sabi"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:15 pm

hi, Michael, and happy Springtime, there,

Michaeljc wrote:Also - I don't know what others feel but I am tired of being told what is safe for me and what is not. All part of the modern nanny state.

No need to tell what tires you; now you're sounding just like an old "crank". But we know you're not. Old.

Well, I write that it's unwise to recommend use of strong acids to strangers on public websites, and I hope I'm to be excused for that. You're a professional with specific training and experience, and you know what's safe and what's not, and how to handle and use potentially dangerous preparations safely. Not everybody on their laptop or phone does. So, I recommend a very safe alternative, even if it's less instantaneously effective ("fizzy"). It smells better, too.

I'd say Teresa is blessed, finding such great fossil tracks. Nice photos! They definitely arouse in one an appreciation of "deep time", as the Paleontologists say, and take "wabi-sabi" to a new height, or depth.

rgds, All,

--Joe
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