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How can I get enlightened

How can I get enlightened

Postby zenci on Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:44 pm

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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:00 pm

Nice one.

Of course, nobody uses that word. It's been deprecated. Nowadays "awakening" or "awakened" is prevalent. That old-fashioned errant translation and mis-understanding has been a pollution since the beginning (about 200 years in English?).

After all, the historical Buddha Shakyamuni said he is "awake". Buddha means awake.

Yeah, yeah, I know it's a fun-and-games thread. But... . :heya:

Hmm, the cartoon also reminds me a little of a segment of a skit performed by George Burns and Gracie, on TV of olde. Gracie has a characteristically unique way of understanding or misunderstanding words, and intents.

In the skit, George, Gracie's husband, seems to have misplaced his smoking jacket at home, and asks Gracie,

"Gracie, have you seen my smoking jacket?", and Gracie smiles and says, "Oh, I'll look at it later".

--Joe
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby lobster on Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:05 am

> How can I get enlightened

Not a question for you? :blush:

Then no-answer. Always the Way. :hugs:
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:38 am

lobster wrote:> How can I get enlightened
Not a question for you?
Then no-answer. Always the Way.


n_b.gif

--Joe
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby lobster on Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:25 am

:<.<: I like a tight, small dharma wheel. :O:

So I follow the Hinayana convention of enlightenment before awakening. Therevada before Mahayana. :hide:

In a similar way, I feel it is important to laugh. :lool: Not at anyone or anything but my self. :hugs:

Seagoon: What are you doing down here?
Eccles: Everybody's got to be somewhere!

The Goons :daisy:
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby organizational on Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:32 pm

lobster wrote:Seagoon: What are you doing down here?
Eccles: Everybody's got to be somewhere!

The Goons :daisy:


:lol2: Very good

_/\_

I've a question for all.

Is everything a mindset? like the truth is mindset?
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby Sparkle on Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:29 pm

I asked something similar a number of years ago (on a previous forum) and was met with a barrage of seemingly nonsensical responses - a good percentage not really in reply to me, but seemingly posted by 'experienced' people getting kicks of saying the most way - out zenny shit to make each other laugh and at the same time bestow some 'koan-style wisdom upon the newbie.

I don't expect you'll get too much of that here.



Read books.

Practice

Listen to talks

Find a group. Find a teacher.

Practice Practice Practice.

You'll discover why your question marks you out.

You'll discover why as time goes on its not a question you would ever really want to ask again.

Good luck.

Stu.
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:55 pm

org'l,

organizational wrote:Is everything a mindset? like the truth is mindset?

I'd say it's possible. And likely.

Buddha said something about everything being due to the mind (or it is some product of the mind).

The Yogacara Buddhist school (of philosophy and practice) said/says something like that, too. Another name for the Yogacara school is "Mind-Only", or Vijñapti-mātra. A nice, organized, theory of "Mind", assembled through deep practice, intuition, and logical thought. I think it's amenable to Zen Buddhism, along with Madhyamika.

Yogacara and Madhyamika look at mind and experience from opposite poles, by the way: Yogacara, from delusion (the relative); and Madhyamika, from awakening (the absolute). Or, the one from samsara, the other from nirvana, say.

Good resources and traveling-companions for Zen Buddhism/Buddhists to have! :)

--Joe
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:27 pm

And really... we must cut zenci, in the OP, tons of due slack.

The subject-line as given I think properly pertains to the mind-set of the cartoon character in the link, not to zenci('s)!

But I jumped on the word "enlightened", anyway, as a part of the "fun and games". It may not have been entirely without arousing cross-purposes, however, and I regret it if so.

To show how the fun and irony and joke of the cartoon tickled me correctly, though, note that I did bring in a mention of an almost similar scenario exemplified in the (George) Burns and (Gracie) Allen skit in the same reply. :type:

--Joe
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby lobster on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:07 am

organizational wrote:Is everything a mindset? like the truth is mindset?


Everywhere we think, seek or find opinions - a mindset.
We have to settle.

It then becomes apparant that everything is enlightenment. However does that mean we are awake to it?

How do we wake up? In your dreams ... :hugs:

:dance: :)X :ghug:
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby organizational on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:04 am

thank you lobster

for the last few days it is you that i can hear your voice more clearly.and the second one is jundo.so thank you both.

as for the question you said enlightenment is apperantly the answer

i want to ask what is enlightenment?

what i understand from enlightenment is to be awaken, to be aware therefore in limited words to be able to know everything.

when you become awakened naturally you become a teacher and begin to teach others.so helping the poor in need is a primarily work.

well, i don't get enlightened nor do i come close but we can talk more if you open a new thread about enlightenment.

like Mind, mindset and the enlightenment.would be a good title :) :heya: :)X

thanks in advance,
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby anka on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:45 am

It would be interesting to get an explanation from each teacher on the board of enlightenment. I am sure it is handled slightly different by each school and sect.

The one that resonates with me most is that enlightenment is a moment in which all things fall away. The next day this enlightened person maybe stuck in traffic and start to get frustrated like the rest of us but typically they are experienced enough in the practice to return to breath.

Getting enlightenment doesn't mean you are no longer a person with struggles. It just means you caught a glimpse of something bigger and it might have slightly altered how you perceive things in your daily life.

I do hope the teachers jump in here it would be really interesting to get all their explanations in one place.

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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby jundo on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:10 am

anka wrote:It would be interesting to get an explanation from each teacher on the board of enlightenment. I am sure it is handled slightly different by each school and sect.

The one that resonates with me most is that enlightenment is a moment in which all things fall away. The next day this enlightened person maybe stuck in traffic and start to get frustrated like the rest of us but typically they are experienced enough in the practice to return to breath.

Getting enlightenment doesn't mean you are no longer a person with struggles. It just means you caught a glimpse of something bigger and it might have slightly altered how you perceive things in your daily life.

I do hope the teachers jump in here it would be really interesting to get all their explanations in one place.

Anka


Hey Anka,

Well, "Enlightenment" for me is not a moment or a single experience and not a single state, at least not during this human life. It is a living thing. I actually came as close to describing this with a post yesterday, my silly Buddha Bus ...

viewtopic.php?p=187640#p187640

I know this may sound queer (I like to say "Wise-Crazy"), but one can learn to be free of all "struggles" even as and experiencing all of life's "struggles" same as before ... struggle-non-struggle ... a Buddha Smile beyond "life v death" as the tears sometimes roll down our eyes because our beloved died, a Peace that holds all lifes broken and sharp pieces that sometimes leave us bleeding. It is THE WHOLE CATASTROPHE as just as catastrophic and terrible as always sometimes, yet ... :)X

As some teachers say, "after the ecstasy, the laundry." Life is just life, as much as a joy sometimes and a PAIN IN THE BUTT as always, and the terrible tragic times are still terrible and tragic, yet ... :dance:

It is not one moment and it is not one state, it is not one not two that holds the infinite permutations of all this selflifeworld.

Honestly, I don't know if that is "Enlightenment" or not, and it could be just crazy. Yet not to be traded for all the treasure in the world.

Gassho, J
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:12 pm

anka,

anka wrote:Getting enlightenment doesn't mean you are no longer a person with struggles. It just means you caught a glimpse of something bigger and it might have slightly altered how you perceive things in your daily life.

Oh?

Is that your experience? Or, is it a mash-up of accounts made throughout history by others? If it's your experience, I hope you'll please tell us more (but if it's just a paraphrase of pulp fiction, never mind).

I submit that there is no "enlightenment", and that no one knows anything about any such thing.

There is however, Awakening (as the Buddha experienced), and as many others have. We can read (about... ) the awakening experiences of many Ch'an and Zen luminaries, and of some 52 Patriarchs (Ancestors) of Ch'an/Zen/Son/Thien. One collection of such accounts (stories) actually comprises a collection of koans which is used in some Zen Buddhist lines as a part of the koan-curriculum. This is Ch'an Master of the Ts'ao-tung (J.: Soto) school, Keizan Jokin's (1268–1325) Record of Transmitting the Light -- Zen Master Keizan's Denkoroku. A recent translator to English of the 52 cases in the work is Dr. Francis H. Cook (Center Publications, Los Angeles, 1991).

As a word, "enlightenment" was a bad choice by translators to English of about 200 years ago, or so, and was probably also given a push by Madame Blavatsky and other Theosophists. Oh, well. But we don't have to be stuck with it. The Buddha said he is "Awake". Nothing about the other word.

w/ Friendly greetings,

--Joe
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby jundo on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:53 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:There is however, Awakening (as the Buddha experienced), and as many others have. We can read (about... ) the awakening experiences of many Ch'an and Zen luminaries, and of some 52 Patriarchs (Ancestors) of Ch'an/Zen/Son/Thien. One collection of such accounts (stories) actually comprises a collection of koans which is used in some Zen Buddhist lines as a part of the koan-curriculum. This is Ch'an Master of the Ts'ao-tung (J.: Soto) school, Keizan Jokin's (1268–1325) Record of Transmitting the Light . A recent translator to English of the 52 cases in the work is Francis H. Cook (Center Publications, Los Angeles, 1991).

As a word, "enlightenment" was a bad choice by translators to English of about 200 years ago, or so, and probably also given a push by Madame Blavatsky and other Theosophists. Oh, well. But we don't have to be stuck with it. The Buddha said he is "Awake". Nothing about the other word.



This is very wise, I feel. I would offer a small caution however ...

It is also important to remember that these Koan story accounts are idealistic religious literature, hagiographies written long after the fact about long dead and sometimes never lived people (the stories about Tang Dynasty masters, for example, not actual historical account but romantic tales created in the Song). Sometimes in Chan/Zen history, "Enlightenment" became something the master not necessarily lived, but merely embodied by his role and association with the "Enlightened" masters of the past via these tales. Whether he himself really knew such, or was just repeating and associating himself the state of the Ancestors without being such, was another story. Did the master walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk?

We have to be careful about reading them too literally, as recounts of historical events, and not as the exaggerated and dramatic creations of religiously inspired authors. Much better is, for example, to read Keizan's (or some other flesh and blood Master's) poetic and creative descriptions of his own realization than his recounting rather unbelievable stories about ancestors in the Lineage many of whom were not even historical personages. I feel much more confident in reading a master bend the language and use whatever was available to him to express his own insight first person (and first "non-person") then allude to what others may have tasted hundreds of years before.

And much better than Keizan's words is to find one's own.

Gassho, J

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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:18 pm

jundo wrote:I feel much more confident in reading a master bend the language and use whatever was available to him to express his own insight first person (and first "non-person") then allude to what others may have tasted.

And much better than Keizan's words is to find one's own.

Thanks, Jundo.

I don't think I've read Keizan's account of his own opening(s), but I'd like to. I'll shift around, sift around, and see what I fish-up.

As for myself, I'm squeamish (tho' not entirely refractory, if pressed) to speak of openings closer to home, except with my teachers and some sangha friends. Two of my teachers have passed away: Ven. Sheng Yen; and, Patrick Hawk Roshi. I was with Sheng Yen since Feb., 1979, and with Pat from 1989-2012. Lots of water over and under the bridge, and continuing.

(somewhere here a few years ago I posted a "Member Introduction" for myself. I'll search for it and edit-in a link to that thread [although I include nothing about openings, etc.] ).

EDIT: ok, I've got this to surface: my ZFI "Member's Introduction" from back-when;

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9409

rgds,

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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby organizational on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:21 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:anka,

anka wrote:Getting enlightenment doesn't mean you are no longer a person with struggles. It just means you caught a glimpse of something bigger and it might have slightly altered how you perceive things in your daily life.

Oh?

Is that your experience? Or, is it a mash-up of accounts made throughout history by others? If it's your experience, I hope you'll please tell us more (but if it's just a paraphrase of pulp fiction, never mind).

I submit that there is no "enlightenment", and that no one knows anything about any such thing.
w/ Friendly greetings,

--Joe


I, too think that's a pulp fiction.Or at least i hope so.

On the other hand it is as if there is something missing on the word just 'awakening'.
I feel the wholeness in the word 'Enlightenment'
which i grow up with
yea..much better
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:36 pm

hi, org'l,

organizational wrote:On the other hand it is as if there is something missing on the word just 'awakening'.

I think "Realization" is (metric-) tons better.

It hints that something has been "realized" (as in, something that one has cottoned-to), but it also conveys , as in a "-tion" sense, that there's still something going on, and, actively; it was not a "one-shot deal": One is realizing (progressive-tense of the verb) -- making real -- one's true nature in an ongoing way, every moment, day by day, deed by deed, with true Wisdom and true Compassion, being true to one's realization of one's true nature. One also needs to continue practice in the same "ongoing way", because "Greed, hatred, and ignorance rise endlessly".

I think the English language can almost do no better than "Realization".

:Namaste:,

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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby anka on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:23 pm

Hi Joe,

Thank you for pointing out my post may have not been clear enough. That was based off of dharma talks I have attended and what personally makes sense to me.

Reading your post right before this one it seems we do not disagree but are merely saying the same thing in a different manner, with yours being more elegant.

Jundo,

Your point as to most of these stories being highly romanticized was a good reminder of this for me. It is amazing how much can be lost or confused over centuries of language and cultural development never mind transcription between languages.
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Re: How can I get enlightened

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:59 pm

a,

anka wrote:... it seems we do not disagree but are merely saying the same thing in a different manner, ...

We may never really know. ;)

anka wrote:Jundo:
Your point as to most of these stories being highly romanticized was a good reminder of this for me. It is amazing how much can be lost or confused over centuries of language and cultural development never mind transcription between languages.

Well, in the collection I mention, the stories are koans. Each one is a koan "case". They are practical artifices for insight and awakening and development of skillful means by other practitioners, working with a teacher. They are not meant as history of saints, nor perhaps also not as literal accounts of "what happened". As such, they are gifts of compassionate-giving by their originators, and by Keizan, for preserving and collecting them. They can be tools. It may be impossible to guess or to know how much -- or, even if at all -- "romanticized" they are. I submit it's not important. I also submit that almost nothing of our practice would change even if it were the case that Buddha Shakyamuni never lived.

Granted, some bits of the stories are written in a grandiose fashion, just like many of the canonical Buddhist scriptures. But this seems natural to me, because, after all, Keizan was of course a (Ch'an) monastic. Scripture was and is not taboo, even in a tradition appraising itself as, "Not dependent on words and letters". Maybe, then, scripture -- in all its vicissitudes -- was something of a "model" for writings of the spiritual sort, even "Ch'an-spiritual", still, in Master Keizan's time.

(no, we don't disagree).

--Joe
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