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Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:43 am

Fuki, take a step back, a moment.

Theravada or Original Buddhist practice does not include or incorporate the Bodhisattva. Instead, the Theravada paragon, or ideal-figure, is the Arahat, or even the Pratyekabuddha.

Those fellows or gals do not care to extract other comrades over the wall besides themselves. They are as yet -- or still, perpetually -- untouched by the Mahayana mentality. They bleed-off to Nirvana themselves, while leaving so many others, well, ..."behind", and un-liberated.

This is not a criticism. But I just make a point of distinction (difference) between the hearts, say, of ...Arahats, and Bodhisattvas. No judgement, as to "character", no.

I make no judgements, but point out clear differences. Perhaps needlessly, if you have an eye to see-with, yourself.

Nothing new, here. Just a Mahayanist talking.

--Joe
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:52 am

I know it does not include the Bodhisattva Joe, so I was a bit confused with your statement, since I'm obviously on the Bodhisattva path I still don't see the context regarding denial of Theravada's practise, since it is an option but just not my option.

I'm misunderstanding you somewhere, help me out.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:57 am

Dear Fuki, "Sleep on it". It's Rodeo Day here.

No time to "Chew-the-fat".

See you tomorrow. Maybe!

:Namaste:

--Joe
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:02 am

Never sleep on anything Joe, tomorrow is just a whole new thingy, bagels perhaps, who can say.
In any case we're all Mahayanists here.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:51 pm

Ah, well, Fuki, that's easily remedied.

Just have a look at a book -- say, a book on Comparative Religion -- which introduces Buddhism, as a religion, or as a tradition. A good one in English is (was?... ) Huston Smith, THE RELIGIONS OF MAN. The chapter on Buddhism treats the different paragons (ideal-figures) of the two main threads in Buddhism, Theravada and Mahayana. Vajrayana is treated, too, but the Lama ideal is not too different from the Bodhisattva (if at all; I don't know).

Thus, you will learn (read... ) in what ways the Arhat or Arahat is characteristically different from the Bodhisattva, in terms of the high-points and thrusts of their "careers", although they are both definitely disciples of the Buddha (who taught differently at different times, and to different gatherings (we gather... ) in his OWN career).

best,

--Joe

fukasetsu wrote:I know it does not include the Bodhisattva Joe, so I was a bit confused with your statement, since I'm obviously on the Bodhisattva path I still don't see the context regarding denial of Theravada's practise, since it is an option but just not my option.

I'm misunderstanding you somewhere, help me out.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:03 pm

Sure Joe, but these difference are only in appearance and function, never in essence.

In my angle of vision, no one has a choise in this (eventhough it's nothing fixed and picks are made)
But things are never the way we think they are, but I'm never certain.

Just an observation, I fear it's of no additional value, if so I apologize.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:07 pm

Dear Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:Why are you reifying the ridiculous?

Remind yourself ASAP of the name of the area that this thread resides in, pls.! :tongueincheek:

--Joe
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:35 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Sure Joe, but these difference are only in appearance and function, never in essence.

Well, to take a hint from the Pragmatist philosophers of America (I think of Charles S. Pierce, for example), "A difference which is to be a real difference must MAKE a difference."

Tibetan Buddhists, too, in their appreciation of dependent-origination, nonetheless DO acknowledge -- indeed, stipulate, even though a thing has no self-nature -- that, the way, for example that something is USED (pragmatically... ) can rightfully and correctly justify and legitimize its being CALLED a certain thing: for example, again, a Hammer may indeed be a shaped-piece of forged, hardened steel on an ash-wood handle, but nonetheless, because it is USED as a hammer, it is right to CALL it a hammer. That's the Tibetan Buddhist's view, and understanding. And, a lot of peoples' (view, and understanding).

So, now. The differences between the motivations and activities of Arahats and Bodhisattvas are indeed real differences, because these cited differences MAKE a difference. And the reasons for these differences is because the Buddha instilled them in different disciples at different times and in different gatherings, during his 30 years teaching. And so the (pragmatic; practical; real) differences exist, and persist, to this day, and probably will persist, beyond.

And, why not? "Different strokes for different folks". And as the French say, I think, "Vive la difference".

Remember -- Buddhism and Buddhist practice are not hypothetical, and don't seek to instill nor install a particular metaphysics. They are PRACTICAL, entirely pragmatic. Thus, the differences cited, because they MAKE a difference, are real differences, on the Tibetan or Pragmatists' appreciation ("definition"), and for Theravadins and Mahayanists everywhere, and every-when.

There, now -- Now you know more than I do about it. ;)

(but, you knew that!) :lol2:

:Namaste: brother,

--Joe

In my angle of vision, no one has a choise in this (eventhough it's nothing fixed and picks are made)
But things are never the way we think they are, but I'm never certain.

Just an observation, I fear it's of no additional value, if so I apologize.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:01 pm

Here, here.

Partner dancing requires awareness and clear communication; this is essential both for safety and for the overall success of the dance


Lead, follow, guest, host.

Thank you Sir, I enjoy this 'pas de "deux"'
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:39 pm

Further, to add some elements to the forces or resources which may potentially and necessarily increase the lifetime of a Bodhisattva's working-career as a Bodhisattva, and prevent his or her leakage to Nirvana...

..let's see. We've already added the element of "Transfer of Merit". Right. If a Bodhisattva does not carry all that merit -- like an excess of air carried in a balloon, or tire -- then he or she may keep practicing and working to save all beings, without bursting like a balloon in Samsara, and transporting to Nirvana.

Well, Conze notes another element (or three). And that is the addition -- or natural formation -- of three additional available bhumis ("levels", or "stages", when the word is used by Mahayanists).

Originally, seven successive stages -- or bhumis -- recognized in Theravada, lead to Arahatship.

Ten successive stages -- bhumis -- in Mahayana, lead to Buddhahood.

Conze notes that the added bhumis -- 8 through 10 -- in Mahayana are bhumis in which the Bodhisattva remains dedicated in the practice of "skill in means", and is entirely devoted to the welfare of others.

Certain "Celestial" Bodhisattvas like Manjushri, Avalokitesvara, Maitreya, etc., are Bodhisattvas of the tenth stage, Conze notes. I take it that "Celestial" means that these bodhisattvas have a body not quite of flesh and blood,

    "...but have a dharmic body which has issued from the dharmadhatu, and which has the ability to conjure up fictitious bodies (nirmita), which go to all parts of the world (as well as to the states of woe)."
    (Conze, BUDDHIST THOUGHT IN INDIA, 1962; p. 236-7).
Perhaps some tenth-stage Bodhisattvas can be flesh-and-blood Bodhisattvas, too.

Thus, the three additional bhumis give a Bodhisattva an additional exercise-area for the saving of beings, and for remaining in Samsara, rather than leaking-away to Nirvana.

The additional bhumis, and the practice of Transfer of Merit would seem to complement each other in favor of a Bodhisattva's length of tenure, and success in the job.

--Joe
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby Avisitor on Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:34 am

Saw a movie where these two people were condemned to die spoke with each other
They talked about how bad their lives had been and hoped that their next lives would be better
They were believers of Buddha but not actual practitioners
Anyway, my point is that there is no next lives
It is pointless to go on about something one has no control over

So, if it is the fate of one to go the way of the Budhisattvic then there she blows ( I really hope no one here has a dirty mind).
Meaning is there is no such thing as Job security in the eight fold path
For "This Too Shall Pass" ... haha
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:58 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Dear Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:Why are you reifying the ridiculous?

Remind yourself ASAP of the name of the area that this thread resides in, pls.! :tongueincheek:

--Joe


I have been reminded.... this is the fun and games section. It can go so far and then it can't help but get ridiculous.
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not this morning;
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:06 am

Linda, don't stop there. Tell us the whole thing. That's a part of why this thread exists. I encourage you not to hide your Light under a bushel.

--Joe

let_it_shine.jpg

Linda Anderson wrote:It can go so far and then it can't help but get ridiculous.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Certain "Celestial" Bodhisattvas like Manjushri, Avalokitesvara, Maitreya, etc., are Bodhisattvas of the tenth stage, Conze notes. I take it that "Celestial" means that these bodhisattvas have a body not quite of flesh and blood,


Tenth sounds good especially the transcending of (ordinary laws of) time-space,
in any case I still say we're divine beings having a human experience instead of the other way around,
that's why I don't care much about 'spirituality', as it is practised often in the common form.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:11 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:I have been reminded.... this is the fun and games section. It can go so far and then it can't help but get ridiculous.


No you're being silly. :PP:
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:16 pm

Thanks for raising this topic Joe, funny enough this matter manifested in daily life today, and only in flesh contact did I really by intuition got the actual function of the matter, I talked a lot, and couldn't say it again, but in the moment it was clear and perfect. I sense your post was a condition which helped water the seed, funny how that "mysteriously but yet so obvious" works. Thanks Friend, for being on this path with us.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:57 pm

Of course, "the Bodhisattva lives by Prajnaparamita": so says the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra.

And so, in addition to having our Bodhisattva Vows, and three additional bhumis in which to develop Skillful Means, plus the practice of the Transfer of Merit, we also have the teaching and guidance of the Heart Sutra, and the entire body of the Prajnaparamita literature.

Conze sums up the 8000-line Prajnaparamita Sutra as follows, showing how the Bodhisattva regards Beings, or not Beings, and Knowledge, or not Knowledge, and Attainment, or not Attainment, and the Perfection of Wisdom, or not Perfection of Wisdom:

    "The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:

    1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or Buddha-to-be), i.e., one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.

    2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a 'being', or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.

    To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect."


    --E. Conze; THE PRAJNAPARAMITA LITERATURE; 1958; 1977 (2nd Ed.); p. 7.

    ---------------------------------------------
I'd note, though, that the "acceptance" of these contradictory facts is not by volition, but by natural incorporation or recognition and even expression of what's indwelling, or featured within, and true of, one's being, after awakening to one's nature. There are no "contradictions" in the facts of (one's) real and actual life, but only in words.

--Joe
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:34 pm

Anders,

Anders wrote:I quoted from a draft translation which I don't think I am at liberty to share. Here is conze's gloss (from XXVII:1 in his translation):

Thanks again for this citation, Anders.

I now have a copy of Conze's translation, complete with verse summaries at the front of the book (an inexpensive reprint from India). In the past few days I'm finding lots of material in it that bears upon my question, beginning even earlier in the sutra than Chapter XXVII. For example, in Chapter XX, "Discussion of Skill In Means". And there may be many others.

I'll be poring over the sutra for a while, and may pull out a quote or two to post here.

Thanks again!,

--Joe
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:53 pm

I forget if I mentioned in so many words before in this thread another stated difference between Arhat and Bodhisattva:

The Arhat practices for Nirvana (that is, to attain Nirvana, leaving the samsaric world and saving oneself).

The Bodhisattva practices for Buddhahood (that is, to attain Prajna Wisdom, and Compassion, as resources for saving all beings).

--Joe

EDIT: 04:40 UTC, March 26, 2016 -- I'd add though, as a point of clarification, that NONE of this implies that there does not exist compassion in the Theravada. If it were true that there was no compassion there, then there would/could never arise TEACHERS of Theravada, since teaching other beings to practice, and hence sharing the Dharma, is a most compassionate activity, and I think ranks with a Bodhisattva's "saving beings". Plus, there's the explicit and intentional Theravada practice of "metta", or loving-kindness, which seems clearly an expression of compassion (or else is simply compassion-in-action, rather). If I'm wrong about any of this, please let me know (just where). I don't mean merely incomplete (which is almost certainly the case), but wrong. Thanks!! -J.
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Re: Bodhisattvic Job-Security (or Not)

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:32 pm

Today I was delighted to stumble upon this post, while doing a search here at ZFI on something else.

I think it nicely fits this topic of considering the Bodhisattva and Arhat, and I think that what the sentence states is true.

----------------------------------
Subject: "experience" nirvana

Post by jamparaja on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:29 am


With wisdom, you do not dwell in samsara; with compassion, you do not dwell in nirvana

----------------------------------

--Joe
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