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Buddhist Vegetarianism

Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:36 pm

Av,

Face what you like, it's OK.

At the zendo, sometimes we face the wall, sometimes we face in. :ghug:

--Joe

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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:47 pm

Avisitor wrote:Lets face it, your sense of humor is just plain terrible


Do you want to be the pot or the kettle? :PP:
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:51 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Do you want to be the pot or the kettle? :PP:

Give that man a (chocolate) cigar! :tongueincheek:

--Joe
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:42 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:Do you want to be the pot or the kettle? :PP:

Give that man a (chocolate) cigar! :tongueincheek:

--Joe


Ah sweet thanks, and a glas of Ballentine's on the side.
Well, here's to your health Sir, et al.

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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby Avisitor on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:32 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Lets face it, your sense of humor is just plain terrible


Do you want to be the pot or the kettle? :PP:

Yeah, I see a lot of that going around :)X
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:34 pm

Ah deflecting again...why not embrace the room for self-improvement. :heya:
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby Avisitor on Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:30 am

fukasetsu wrote:Ah deflecting again...why not embrace the room for self-improvement. :heya:

Of course deflecting ... was that not part of the game you were playing?? :dance:
And I will always try to make room for self improvement even though it may take me a few months to do so ... haha


desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Face what you like, it's OK.

At the zendo, sometimes we face the wall, sometimes we face in. :ghug:

--Joe

Yeah, it has been a long time since I have been there
Well, actually the place is probably not there anymore as it was actually just someone's house where we gathered
Too long ago and too far away.
That is how you make me feel sometimes ... just out of it.
Yeah, May be time to leave.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby A Philosopher on Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:31 pm

Avisitor wrote:Been looking into veggie burgers
Then I found out that they use egg whites

What to do? What to do?


Egg whites are still vegetarian.
Where I shop, I can get a few kinds which are without any animal products.

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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby A Philosopher on Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:42 pm

To me, it's not a matter of any religious perspective. Rather it's a matter of compassion and justice.

As a matter of most basic compassion, I try to be open to suffering of all sentient beings. (This includes this suck of bones.)
As a matter of justice, it seems to me unfair to sacrifice most basic interests of one being for less important or even peripheral interests of other beings. So, if I can support my life and and live in a healthy way, this seems to my fair and just.

I will add one thing, in my case I truly know what is important for my life and well being when I try a particular life style for at least few weeks and do it in a smart way. So my body has enough time to adjust. I mean, eating but "Oreo" cookies or French fries may be vegan, but it is not healthy. We cannot do really well on this sort of diet. Our bodies need lots of raw greens. So, when I adjust my eating habits I do it responsibly.

In 1972, I went vegetarian. Few years ago I adopted a plan based life style. It works for me.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby A Philosopher on Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:38 am

This is a classic book about including a short bio and teachings of the Tibetan Master Shabkar: http://www.amazon.com/Food-Bodhisattvas ... 1590301161

More about Shakbar and generally Buddhism and vegetarianism here: http://www.shabkar.org

"To Cherish All Life: A Buddhist Case for Becoming Vegetarian", written by a contemporary Zen teacher Philip Kapleau , is way worth reading: http://www.amazon.com/Cherish-All-Life- ... 094030600X
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby Avisitor on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:33 am

People have cats and dogs for pets.
Does that mean when one goes vegetarian that the pets do too?
Or, does it not matter cause one is vegetarian and not the pets?\
Who makes the choices?

Sorry, just thinking out loud.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby A Philosopher on Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:11 am

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We feed them (except for what they can find or catch when the roam free). So, by definition, we make the decisions about what we feed them.

Both of my puppies are rescues taken from the shelter. It seemed wrong to me to save their lives and then sacrifice many other animals for them. Especially because it was not just the matter of life and death for those other animals but also the mater of causing them excruciating suffering. (About 60-70% of animals that reach the market go through factory farms at some time in their lives. In addition, they suffer in transportation and when they are slaughtered.) So, like me, my dogs are plant based.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:43 am

Avisitor wrote:People have cats and dogs for pets.
Does that mean when one goes vegetarian that the pets do too?
Or, does it not matter cause one is vegetarian and not the pets?\
Who makes the choices?

Sorry, just thinking out loud.


Dogs seems to work fine (on the short term at least) on a plant based diet however there's little known about health issues in the long term,
For cats however (if they are indoor cats so they can't get anything hunting done) it is a definitive no, I'd consider it pretty cruel to do so since pets don't show health problems are deal with pain the way humans do, so I can't trust cats and dogs to let me know there's a problem in their diet, I've seen many animals who were always joyous on the outside never showing signs while they were in excruciating pains on the inside sometimes for years even. So I will never take the risk to feed my cat vegetarian, plus 'science' is limited so I don't trust the authority of scientists fully on this matter. But as they say, for dogs it's doable, for indoor cats it's a no. And both dogs and cats should never be on a vegan diet. Dogs and cats are carnivores so I would never put them on a vegetarian diet personally, we should not force evolution via the projection of human emotions or logic, as I said it's too much of a risk for me to ever make such a decision.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:40 am

Agree Fuki... I'll add that Dolly was very sick a year ago, she peed little pea-size thingys, lots of them. It looked like an infection, but nothing helped. Finally, the vet told me how to get a urine sample at home... I wouldn't leave her bec they terrified Sheba years ago trying to get a sample but they never succeeded. (diff vet) From the urine sample, he concluded that she had crystals in her urinary track. They are very painful. Previous to this, he had said I should put her on a no-grain, no-soy cat food... now she had to be on a special kind of that. No-grain cat food is taking hold over here... every cat I ever had wound up with kidney problems from the grain. Indeed, they are carnivores and that must be respected as their nature. A friend put his cat on a raw food/meat diet... Luca was quite a cat. It takes tremendous commitment to keep that up.... Years ago, I lived with Luca for a month while they went to Tibet and I made her fresh food every day. ofc, I couldn't leave Sheba, so she came with too. Dear girl was so flexible tho it wasn't easy for her. She just did the next thing. And, even before that, my ole cat Boxer had life threatening kidney problems, I made her food everyday.... it kept her alive and happy for another year and a half.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:58 am

Thanks Linda,

animals are tough cookies compared to us humans, I'll never forget my neighbour's dog (Pascha a rottweiler) one day was put to sleep all of a sudden much to our surprise, she was the most happy active dog you can be. Always running around playing catch and what not never showing a sign of distress, turned out she had bone metastasis for a very long time. It has taught me at a very young age pets and I think especially dogs don't show their pain always and it say little about what we think how they're doing.
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby A Philosopher on Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:32 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Avisitor wrote:People have cats and dogs for pets.
Does that mean when one goes vegetarian that the pets do too?
Or, does it not matter cause one is vegetarian and not the pets?\
Who makes the choices?

Sorry, just thinking out loud.


Dogs seems to work fine (on the short term at least) on a plant based diet however there's little known about health issues in the long term,
For cats however (if they are indoor cats so they can't get anything hunting done) it is a definitive no, I'd consider it pretty cruel to do so since pets don't show health problems are deal with pain the way humans do, so I can't trust cats and dogs to let me know there's a problem in their diet, I've seen many animals who were always joyous on the outside never showing signs while they were in excruciating pains on the inside sometimes for years even. So I will never take the risk to feed my cat vegetarian, plus 'science' is limited so I don't trust the authority of scientists fully on this matter. But as they say, for dogs it's doable, for indoor cats it's a no. And both dogs and cats should never be on a vegan diet. Dogs and cats are carnivores so I would never put them on a vegetarian diet personally, we should not force evolution via the projection of human emotions or logic, as I said it's too much of a risk for me to ever make such a decision.


I have heard it is relatively easy to raise dogs on plant based or vegetarian diet. That's what we do. I also heard it is possible to do it for cats but it is not easy, it requires some careful planning, supplements, and so on. I do not know how accurate it is for I have never have to face the situation.

I appreciate you made the decision not to be cruel to your pets. I try to extend this to all animals, whether or not they are my pets. It seems to me one of the most basic ethical requirements. So, if I had cats, it would be a huge dilemma for me. I do not know how to make sure that the animals they eat have a decent quality of life and that meat they eat is as suffering free as possible.

So, Dear Linda and Fukasetsu, since/if you have cats and feed them meat, what do you do about not exposing other animals to tortures and excruciating suffering? Can you describe some concrete measures and steps you take?

Thanks!
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:48 pm

In Japan, I understand that cats eat RICE (they might also eat sushi!). :tongueincheek:

In the wild, cats will eat what they can find.

I have house-cats who will eat my lunch if I am not careful. My breakfast, too. And maybe especially, my dinner.

They like Almonds (the nuts contain Omega-3 oils, which remind cats of Fish);
they like pumpkin pulp (right out of the can: pumpkin-pie filling);
they like cooked rice;
cooked cereal;
pasta;
any meats, poultry, and fish;
eggs;
milk;
dry cereal (wetted with milk);
bread;
cooked beans;
broccoli; carrots; peas; string-beans; etc.

I mean, cats WILL eat these things. I sometimes give them small bits of these things just to SEE if they will eat them. ;)

One new young cat here in particular will eat ANYTHING I've so far have presented to him (tonight, I'll test him on Tofu).

Cats should NOT eat:

Raisins;
Chocolate;
Philodendron leaves;
...and probably many other things that I'm forgetting.

Give your cat some variety (and she'll take it),

...but others wisely say that you should NEVER feed your indoor cats any "people-"food because then your cat will pester you during meals, by begging, jumping to the table, etc. In light of that, better to acculturate them instead on just "Cat food". But, I for one like "sharing". ;)

--Joe
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:58 am

Fuki,
You are so right that animals don't show their pain... unless they are dying. Sometimes, I can see something is wrong, sometimes not. They don't show their pain bec that is not a good thing for survival in the wild. Humans are like that too.

I feed Dolly prescription canned food and grain-free dry which has fish in it. Cats need the moisture too. I don't have the conviction to make pet food, I'm happy if I get dinner made for myself . ... if one does feed meat, like I did with Luca, it must be in conjunction with certain other nutrients.... I don't remember all, but there was raw turkey, oil, bone meal, some greens and something else I think. Luca was sleek, shiny and muscular, with a beautiful presence. His owner was a vegetarian for nearly 25 years before going back to some meat. He concluded that his health was suffering. I hear that it takes several generations for animals to regain their original well being that they had when they lived in the wild.

AP, AV,
I am not a vegetarian although I seldom eat animal/fish protein. I've been buying from local farmers when I do eat it for a few years... I'm fortunate to live in an area where this is quite common... but it's easy to order on the internet. So, I do not have issues with feeding Dolly whatever meat is in her food. Such is modern life, I am dependent on prepared cat food. Joe, I've not had much success with feeding veggies, you must have a way with Helga. AP, always love seeing your dogs and your relationship with them. They are beautiful and spirited. And, love the new cats over on the cat thread. Seems to me that we all have to make our own decisions on the issue of vegetarian... the debate raged on Dharma Wheel for years, I haven't checked lately, but the posts were in the thousands with no resolution... :)

Dolly is a good hunter even tho I tell her the rules every day. She always brings the little ones back to me, and usually I see and take them away before she gets too far. I do not understand what the nutritional value of feathers is. As soon as I take it away, she forgets maybe bec I don't scold her. She does not seem to comprehend that I took it... and she is generally a very smart girl. She doesn't seem to have a prob with impermanence I bless them and put them in the bird cemetery. These are the dilemmas we face every day.... we could talk about climate change caused by human, implications of oil and nuclear power, yada, yada... humans leave a big foot print, it's not going to be different. Seems like the question is how do we make amends, how do we show gratitude, how do we help others, how do we revere this planet.

Two years ago, 5 baby raccoons showed up on my deck without a mama.... they were little. I could have held them in the palm of my hand. They would run up the leaning tree which touches the railing... all five lined up at a 60 degree angle looking at me from safety. I started feeding them and leaving water.... we are in a drought. After a while, I got on to the fact that my neighbor down hill thru the trees had something to do with the disappearance of mama. ofc, he said he trapped it and drove it off... you have to know him to know this is not true. Pretty soon, they started disappearing, one by one, until there was only one left and the neighbor had moved. By now, we are probably a year and a half into this. Coonie was the last one left... and he was in sorry shape.... I imagine bec he never learned how to be a raccoon... his mama was dead. He was skin and bones ... and he had a horrible scraggly tail that had met with some sort of trauma and he seemed to have only three functional legs/feet. By then, I knew that he lived under my little studio cottage on the hill. I fed him and tried to slip a few vitamins and healing potions in too. I felt that he could never survive in the wild, so I fed him every night. Every night he came, if I hadn't brought the food out yet, he came and looked in the window of my sliding glass door... ofc, he'd run and hide while I brought the food out. One day his tail just fell off. I tried to call animal rescue, but they didn't seem to care or have the facilities for a raccoon in trouble. I also had to hide this from my landlady who would not permit animals in her yard... we live in the woods... she once turned off her water fountain so the deer would not be attracted, and thus eat her flowers... this is their territory here in the woods. I devised ways to leave food while I was gone so she would not see.... a life of crime. :peace: One day last November Coonie stopped coming, by then he was healthy.... he was eating nearly a can of dog food a night! I hope he finally had the strength to be a raccoon... there is a river down the hill with plenty of friends for him. Sad thing is, with the drought, there is a noticeable impact on the wild life.

I suppose that either way you go, things happen and beings die. I have no answers.

linda
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby A Philosopher on Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:33 am

Linda Anderson wrote:AP, AV,
I am not a vegetarian although I seldom eat animal/fish protein. I've been buying from local farmers when I do eat it for a few years... I'm fortunate to live in an area where this is quite common... but it's easy to order on the internet. So, I do not have issues with feeding Dolly whatever meat is in her food. Such is modern life, I am dependent on prepared cat food. Joe, I've not had much success with feeding veggies, you must have a way with Helga. AP, always love seeing your dogs and your relationship with them. They are beautiful and spirited. And, love the new cats over on the cat thread. Seems to me that we all have to make our own decisions on the issue of vegetarian... the debate raged on Dharma Wheel for years, I haven't checked lately, but the posts were in the thousands with no resolution... :)

...


Thank you for sharing and talking so openly about your experience. ")

Smaller farms surely are better than factory ones. But, after looking into it, I came to believe that they still do not guarantee that animal needs are fulfilled at the minimally adequate level, and that they do not suffer excruciating suffering during transportation and in slaughterhouses, including the suffering caused by fear and the anticipation of death.

The linked essay, but the UK evolutionary psychologist, open my eyes to some of the issues: http://sentientist.org/2013/03/08/under ... -me-vegan/

I didn’t want to go vegan. I spent about a year researching animal products to try to find those that met some specific standards so I could be a “humaneivore” (someone who only eats humane animal products) but I never found those minimum standards realized. These were:

1- The animals would be able to actualize all of their basic desires (e.g. dust bathing, rooting, forming bonds with conspecifics)

2- The animals would have no idea they were about to be slaughtered and not transported to slaughter

3- Animals would be killed painlessly

4- Animals would not be altered in any way without anesthetic (e.g. tail docking, debeaking, castration are all done, for the most part, without anesthetic)

5- Animals would receive adequate veterinary care so they did not suffer physically for very long (e.g. hens who have uterine prolapse most often die of it without any respite from what must be horrible suffering)


One thing that I appreciate about her approach is that she was so concrete and specific about setting up the criteria for what kind of meat she would consider as minimally acceptable. (Incidentally, unlike her, I always wanted to be vegetarian or vegan. So, I did not even try to look for "suffering free" meat.) As she continues:

Why are animal products where animals’ lives meet the above standards almost impossible to find? In brief, here are some of the conclusions I came to about human evolved psychology towards nonhuman animals.

A farmer caring for an animal above and beyond the extent to which it’s profitable for him (and certainly people make good profits on animals that suffer terribly) would be behaving altruistically. Does altruism exist? From the perspective of evolutionary biology, altruism is defined as the phenomenon of an organism behaving in a way that helps other organisms at a cost to itself. This ‘‘cost’’ is what often trips us up because when you scratch the surface of altruism there is, more often than not, a genetic or other downstream benefit which makes acts not truly altruistic.

There are two main types of altruism.

Kin selection is helping others because they carry copies of your genes and is well represented well by the answer that J. B. S Haldane gave when asked if he would give his life to save his drowning brother. He said ‘‘No, but I would to save two brothers or eight cousins’’**.

The inaptly named reciprocal altruism is helping others because there is some likelihood they will help you in the future, often summarized as “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours”. Singer rightly says that reciprocal altruism is “not really altruism at all; it could more accurately be described as enlightened self interest. One might be a fully reciprocating partner…without having the slightest concern for the welfare of the person one helps’’

People also behave altruistically in order to signal their empathy or trustworthiness both as mates and in order to gain beneficial reputation and status. The well known anecdote for this ††: A professor and students are having a discussion about whether or not altruism exists. A student says “Just this morning I helped an old woman cross the road, surely that is altruistic!”. The professor says “well, yes it was, until you mentioned it.”

The crux of my argument is that humans are poor custodians for nonhuman animals because our evolved psychology.


I hope you will take a look at what else she says. Thanks!
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Re: Buddhist Vegetarianism

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:00 am

A Philosopher wrote:(Incidentally, unlike her, I always wanted to be vegetarian or vegan.....


AP, There is no substitute for what you know... this is not "incidentally"... this is you, nothing added. I trust you when you say "I always wanted to be a vegetarian or a vegan" :rbow:

You don't need my appreciation, but you have it. You do not need her concrete descriptions when you have a deep feeling about what feels right for you.

As far as the article, well I've seen it all before... if you don't know, I live a so-called spiritual pocket in NO Cal where these discussions are rampant... contrived yada, yada. I only wish that they were more grounded. Just today, I cooked for my sangha where there was more request for gluten free... food brings up all our core issues. I make accommodations but I don't serve everyone gluten free. And, if it's not in sangha, it's in the health wise community at large. It can get very polarized... then what has been accomplished? I am not immune to the suffering, I've seen the videos on youtube of factory animal abuse. The prob for me is that it's one thing to talk about altruism and another to embody a natural compassion. She presents all the logical points... I don't I feel them. Indeed, she has many valid points.... It sounds like a moral exercise to me. I feel the suffering that is inherent in this world and our need to sustain ourselves in every way. This is the human dilemma. There is no escape...

Meanwhile, a big heart is called for to take on the multiplicity of being in this world.

as I said above.... "I suppose that either way you go, things happen and beings die. I have no answers."

linda
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