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"method"

Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:25 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Why do you believe yourself so much better and better educated than the rest?
Ego ... fills the forum ... you may have had a taste of this or that but you are a fraud.
You lack all of the wisdom and compassion of which you speak so highly of.
Guess that it must be natural to your benightedness?

Why do you believe yourself to be inferior in some respects? Because, that's what you're saying.

We're just talking. I think you can hold your own in conversation, so far as I've seen, on your good days.

But as Linda and partofit exclaim, you also seem to deliberately (or obtusely) misunderstand many things. I myself make no imputations of your I.Q., education, language-skill, mental-stability, etc., or their deficits (mind you! ).

Here, we're writing about what we have experienced, and what we know. Be grateful for what others give you, in this way, or else, make a proper critique (or both). I don't doubt that you're capable of either (or both).

You've changed!, since you went off caffeine (but kudos for that big step, anyway).

best!,

:coffee:

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:36 pm

C.,

chankin1937 wrote:You have taken a wrong turning. The goal of Zen is Nirvana- a reconnection with our original mind - alert but passive awareness. That is more than enough.

Wholly false, your perceived notion of goal, or purpose of Zen Buddhist work (but OK; you know this).

"Wrong turning?"

Negative. My teachers would not have allowed this to happen. Well, ask Guo Gu, about one of them. ;-)

Who, now -- who is alive, and can testify -- who has kept YOU out of the sinister turns? :lol2:

Nob'dy. :Namaste:

Though, here, we have tried.

But all you allow, and hence all you have, is the echo-chamber of your own small-mind, saying, "yes". Any Zen Buddhist teacher would be compassionate enough to say, "No!"

You ought to see one... and "see".

(not gonna happen, I know)

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:46 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Why do you believe yourself so much better and better educated than the rest?

Heh-heh, well, that's you in your uncomfortable feelings of inferiority or inadequacy saying that, but, God forbid somebody should know what they're talking about, eh, Av? Is that it?

:lol2: :PP: :lol2:

--Joe

:peace:

ps I hope we're having fun, yet, in this Fun and Games thread.

:bored:

pps (whattya got?)
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Re: "method"

Postby partofit22 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:28 pm

About the stink .. I think Avisitor is pointing to elevating one thing at the expense of another- Just a guess ..
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:00 am

Hiya, P.!,

partofit22 wrote:About the stink .. I think Avisitor is pointing to elevating one thing at the expense of another- Just a guess ..

All's well!

Stink? No "stink". Again, we're just talking. Some of us better than others. ;-)

And if there's any "expense", I ain't payin'! ;)

"Elevation" of true wisdom and true compassion in the awakened life is natural, and should be expected, compared with the walks and steps in the dark that the deluded mind takes. Regardless of what-all, practice goes ON, and must go on.

But "elevation", really -- again! -- is actually a wrong concept. The awakened mind is the lowest, most fundamental, basic, mind, without sophistication, without status, without "rank" (as said in Classical times). Yet, most wonderful! So, no stinky-poo at all. Just misunderstanding or misstatement on Av's part, I'm sorry to see. He'll come around, mebbee, if he sees sense, or has a shot of Mocha-Java, to bolster the spirit, down to the toes.

Love, to all'a y'all.

Fun and Games thread,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby partofit22 on Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:15 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Hiya, P.!,

partofit22 wrote:About the stink .. I think Avisitor is pointing to elevating one thing at the expense of another- Just a guess ..

All's well!

Stink? No "stink". Again, we're just talking. Some of us better than others*. ;-)


Stink is a metaphor- In this case for a pattern/game*- Both of which are visible, subject to change and contain the elements with which to do it-

Wikipedia says:

When an astronomer says "M31 is situated in the Andromeda," this does not assert a proximity of that galaxy to stars of the Andromeda constellation in the 3-dimensional space. This means: "turn your telescope towards Andromeda's stars to see M31"


*M31
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:21 pm

P.,

Stink is a metaphor- In this case for a pattern/game*- Both of which are visible, subject to change and contain the elements with which to do it-

Wikipedia says:

When an astronomer says "M31 is situated in the Andromeda," this does not assert a proximity of that galaxy to stars of the Andromeda constellation in the 3-dimensional space. This means: "turn your telescope towards Andromeda's stars to see M31"

That doesn't suit. Anyway, I don't see the connection. As it's off-topic anyway, I'll happily return to the topic, below.

(true) Wisdom and (true) Compassion arise in the awakened person, in response to circumstances, and in perfect accord with them. This is what I assert.

When true wisdom and true compassion are not arising, the person continues to reside in a natural and persistent samadhi in all life's daily doings, empty spaciousness, equanimity. Now, this equanimous samadhi is not "broken" by circumstances, nor by the arising of true wisdom and true compassion, as they arise, in accord with circumstances, it's just that true wisdom and true compassion arise in response to circumstances, and when one's natural response is made, there is no trace, no residue afterwards (that is, one's actions are not productive of karma). The traceless, samadhi, empty state naturally continues. Such an awakened condition of mind, operating in this natural, fundamental, unsophisticated way, may be called the natural, original Mind, ...or Zen-Mind, or No-Mind.

Lightning in an empty sky is done the moment it flashes.

But this too is off-topic, and has nothing to do with the (intended !) humor of the OP (Original Post. :O:

:heya:,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:27 pm

Joe,
chankin1937 wrote:You have taken a wrong turning. The goal of Zen is Nirvana- a reconnection with our original mind - alert but passive awareness. That is more than enough.


Joe wrote: Wholly false, your perceived notion of goal, or purpose of Zen Buddhist work
Who, now -- who is alive, and can testify -- who has kept YOU out of the sinister turns?


Hello Joe,
I refer you to Professor Suzuki’s commentary on the Lankavatara Sutra (M of Z B page 51) talking about the “absolute mind” - Nirvana:

“It is awakened “all of a sudden” according to Asvagosha. ……The fact is simply that it is awakened , and no more. It is not an expression pointing to something else.”

In the Sutra (page 52):
“Those who do not understand……cling to the notion that there is a world outside what is seen of mind and go on rolling themselves along the wheel of birth and death.”

You ask who has been my guide and mentor. Answer: The very best – the writings of the Sutras and the Zen Masters. They contain enough clues for anyone to reacquaint themselves with their original mind – that first element of the model on which our central nervous system is based – profound peace-of-mind – Nirvana.

By all means persist with your practices if you feel they offer you some advantage just so long as the main one is zazen.

In the past you have mentioned the leap from the hundred foot pole. This refers to dissolving the last obstacle to enlightenment. In meditation, even when all thoughts (all CMA) seem to have gone, there remains a small program that directs or conducts our mental activity. This is a good candidate for the “self” we are advised to lose because , once it is gone, we are suddenly launched into the bright, cool, clear, boundless mental state that is the end product of long-term meditation.
All the best,
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:43 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:You ask who has been my guide and mentor. Answer: The very best – the writings of the Sutras and the Zen Masters. They contain enough clues for anyone to reacquaint themselves with their original mind – that first element of the model on which our central nervous system is based – profound peace-of-mind – Nirvana.

Wishing you the best also, quite honestly and sincerely.

You miss the point that a living teacher is necessary, if one wishes to awaken to the original mind. This is not work that one can do alone. Yes, one can get some perceived benefits from practices of various kinds, and experience bliss of empty states momentarily.

But the real touchstone of would-be effective practice is one's operation in daily-life, in interactions with beings. This is where the work alongside someone who has accomplished what we wish to accomplish is the most valuable. All the people's records whom you quote were trained in this way: they had teachers who were demanding of the best and truest from them. They did not allow them to wallow in satisfaction or satisfactions of the small mind. The teachers made sure the (then-)students had contacted the true Dharma, through genuine AWAKENING, not the ways of outer-paths (other religions).

I post the above paragraph to indicate mostly to others reading, here, that a teacher is essential in Zen Buddhist work. One may hope to try to prepare oneself beforehand, though, by engaging in practices you may try to learn from books. But, better to learn them from a friend! And the best friend of all for you, if you are interested in our way, would be a Zen Buddhist master-practitioner, with a true lineage; that is, a "teacher". All the known Ch'an and Zen Buddhist masters of olde had teachers... .

I'll repeat that: All the known Ch'an and Zen Buddhist masters of olde had teachers.

But again, yes -- rest assured -- one may derive perceived benefits from various practices even without a Zen Buddhist teacher's influence. But that is not (yet) Zen Buddhism, nor is it the way it was ever practiced. It is instead some sort of yoga of outer paths.

best!, All,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby partofit22 on Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:50 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:P.,

Stink is a metaphor- In this case for a pattern/game*- Both of which are visible, subject to change and contain the elements with which to do it-

Wikipedia says:

When an astronomer says "M31 is situated in the Andromeda," this does not assert a proximity of that galaxy to stars of the Andromeda constellation in the 3-dimensional space. This means: "turn your telescope towards Andromeda's stars to see M31"


That doesn't suit. Anyway, I don't see the connection. As it's off-topic anyway, I'll happily return to the topic, below.

(true) Wisdom and (true) Compassion arise in the awakened person, in response to circumstances, and in perfect accord with them. This is what I assert.

When true wisdom and true compassion are not arising, the person continues to reside in a natural and persistent samadhi in all life's daily doings, empty spaciousness, equanimity. Now, this equanimous samadhi is not "broken" by circumstances, nor by the arising of true wisdom and true compassion, as they arise, in accord with circumstances, it's just that true wisdom and true compassion arise in response to circumstances, and when one's natural response is made, there is no trace, no residue afterwards (that is, one's actions are not productive of karma). The traceless, samadhi, empty state naturally continues. Such an awakened condition of mind, operating in this natural, fundamental, unsophisticated way, may be called the natural, original Mind, ...or Zen-Mind, or No-Mind.

But this too is off-topic, and has nothing to do with the (intended !) humor of the OP (Original Post. :O:

:heya:,

--Joe


I agree- Patterns and games, when in play, don't suit but continue and can be traced- :heya: In other words, there are no guarantees- Decades of practice bears fruit- Some traceless, some from poisonous roots, ripe for examination but not consumption-
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Re: "method"

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:56 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Zen deals with opening the mind, not the heart.
Colin


Mind is but a transient phantasy :peace:
Everyone for President!
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Mind is daily-life.

There is no "thing".

--Joe

ps hiya, Fuki! :)
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:44 am

partofit22 wrote:About the stink .. I think Avisitor is pointing to elevating one thing at the expense of another- Just a guess ..

Colin and Joe are one and the same
Long ago they experienced something and now they both believe they are better off than the rest
Their ego's won't let go the grip they have on their insanity

The bliss Colin speaks of is gone as is the decade gone since its original appearance
And so it is with Joe, time has bent that mind from it proper alignment
His ego came back not to assist in his life but took over full control

If all have Buddha Nature .. then like missing one's head .. only to discover the truth
It has always been there. Then wisdom and compassion can not arise.
It can only be discovered when the truth is discovered. It has always been there.
It doesn't reside in Samadhi.
That's like saying my sonic screw driver only comes out in certain situations and the rest of the time it stays in its tool box
Wisdom and compassion are not tools to be pulled out when one needs to use them.

The stink is pointing out that this world is still the same ... illusion or not
It is there for you to see for yourself
And what one discovers is there is insanity on both sides of the same coin
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:09 am

Av.

Avisitor wrote:

You're a hundred and fifty thousand percent correct, in the empty quote just above.

Now, aren't you ashamed?

I'll buy you a coffee anytime, regardless. Pretty neat, huh?

"You've got a friend".

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby partofit22 on Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:27 am

Avisitor wrote:
partofit22 wrote:About the stink .. I think Avisitor is pointing to elevating one thing at the expense of another- Just a guess ..

Colin and Joe are one and the same
Long ago they experienced something and now they both believe they are better off than the rest
Their ego's won't let go the grip they have on their insanity

The bliss Colin speaks of is gone as is the decade gone since its original appearance
And so it is with Joe, time has bent that mind from it proper alignment
His ego came back not to assist in his life but took over full control

If all have Buddha Nature .. then like missing one's head .. only to discover the truth
It has always been there. Then wisdom and compassion can not arise.
It can only be discovered when the truth is discovered. It has always been there.
It doesn't reside in Samadhi.
That's like saying my sonic screw driver only comes out in certain situations and the rest of the time it stays in its tool box
Wisdom and compassion are not tools to be pulled out when one needs to use them.

The stink is pointing out that this world is still the same ... illusion or not
It is there for you to see for yourself
And what one discovers is there is insanity on both sides of the same coin


And the discovery of insanity while practicing could potentially lead to even more insanity by using practice as a measure to conceal or ignore it-
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:58 pm

chankin1937 wrote:You ask who has been my guide and mentor. Answer: The very best – the writings of the Sutras and the Zen Masters. They contain enough clues for anyone to reacquaint themselves with their original mind – that first element of the model on which our central nervous system is based – profound peace-of-mind – Nirvana.

Joe wrote: Wishing you the best also, quite honestly and sincerely.


Hello Joe,
Thank you, and may I reciprocate those sentiments.

You miss the point that a living teacher is necessary, if one wishes to awaken to the original mind. This is not work that one can do alone. Yes, one can get some perceived benefits from practices of various kinds, and experience bliss of empty states momentarily.


Yes, you can get those benefits working alone, so doesn’t that make a teacher dispensable?

The teachers made sure the (then-)students had contacted the true Dharma, through genuine AWAKENING, not the ways of outer-paths (other religions).


Because Nirvana is the first element in the model our central nervous system is founded on means that ways of directly experiencing it can be discovered by anyone with a brain. Over four thousand years ago it was written ,
thinking no thing – will limited – self unlimit”.
The Christian mystics experienced it but mistakenly interpreted it as sight of god.
Zen is the clearest expression of the perennial philosophy. One that was originally free of the trappings of religions. (A direct transmission outside the scriptures.) But it is not the only one.

I'll repeat that: All the known Ch'an and Zen Buddhist masters of olde had teachers.


Which raises the philosophical question - who taught the first teacher?

But again, yes -- rest assured -- one may derive perceived benefits from various practices even without a Zen Buddhist teacher's influence.


I know from personal experience that much can be achieved without consulting a modern teacher. All the reliable clues are in the writings of the Masters.

The question arises, which modern teachers should I consult? The ones that foolishly link Nirvana to God? The ones that sexually abuse their students over decades? The ones that talk absolute nonsense? The ones that resort to drugs and alcohol to get something from their practice? How can we be sure we are getting good advice from a good man?
My advice is : stick to the Masters.

But that is not (yet) Zen Buddhism, nor is it the way it was ever practiced. It is instead some sort of yoga of outer paths.


Practices varied enormously as you well know. Hopefully, all roads lead to Rome!

Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:23 pm

Fukasetsu wrote: Mind is but a transient phantasy.


Hello Fukasetsu,
Mind consists of whatever we are aware of. Its real enough – we can’t think without it – or , for that matter, post here. :)
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:11 pm

Avisitor wrote: Colin and Joe are one and the same.


Now there’s a startling revelation!

Long ago they experienced something and now they both believe they are better off than the rest.


I for one don’t know much about “the rest” . For all I know, I may be posting to a few Buddhas.

Their ego's won't let go the grip they have on their insanity.


That’s odd, I don’t feel insane and Joe doesn’t show any signs of mental instability.
On the other hand, insane people don’t as a rule know they are.

The bliss Colin speaks of is gone as is the decade gone since its original appearance.


On the contrary it’s getting better day by day.

And so it is with Joe, time has bent that mind from it proper alignment
His ego came back not to assist in his life but took over full control.


Don’t you mean inflated ego? (Sorry, Joe, no offence intended – just a logical point.)
We all have egos.

If all have Buddha Nature .. then like missing one's head .. only to discover the truth
It has always been there.


Mmm…..not exactly insanity but certainly confusing!

That's like saying my sonic screw driver only comes out in certain situations and the rest of the time it stays in its tool box.


So you’re the one who took it! Dr Who wants that back! :)

Wisdom and compassion are not tools to be pulled out when one needs to use them.


I thought that was the idea – you pull them out when you need to use them.

The stink is pointing out that this world is still the same ... illusion or not
It is there for you to see for yourself


It’s not an illusion..

And what one discovers is there is insanity on both sides of the same coin.

There’s a lot of it around!

It’s been fun posting to you.

Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby partofit22 on Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:10 pm

I think people are very aware of their mental disorders, aware they're in a gray area, have become anxious or paranoid- But insanity, as whole, isn't a separate category set aside for any single individual- Everyone exhibits a bit of collective craziness regardless of efforts made to hide it-
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:08 am

partofit22 wrote:And the discovery of insanity while practicing could potentially lead to even more insanity by using practice as a measure to conceal or ignore it-


The catch 22 ... one can not experience satori through the practice of meditation
Yet, it is almost (qualifier) impossible to experience satori without some practice of meditation

Insanity leads to more insanity
But without it, there can be no one sane

Wisdom and compassion do not arise in situations
Like breath does not arise in the living
It is a part of it ... it is it ... it was there and now is gone ... crying over spilled milk

I don't have to be right ... just not crazy
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