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"method"

Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:08 am

desert_woodworker wrote:And of course, in a person so awakened, Compassion also arises simultaneously and spontaneously with Wisdom, in perfect accord with circumstances, during all activities of daily life.


Sh!t still stinks ... perfect accord or no
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:11 am

Av,

I don't get it. And I'll have none of what you're smoking! P-U !

tnx,

--Joe

Avisitor wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:And of course, in a person so awakened, Compassion also arises simultaneously and spontaneously with Wisdom, in perfect accord with circumstances, during all activities of daily life.


Sh!t still stinks ... perfect accord or no
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:12 am

Compassion and wisdom don't arise in an awakened person
It is there. Just there. Sh!t still stinks.
Wake up in the morning and drink your coffee and take a dump
It is the same. Nothing changes. The world doesn't fall apart.
A person doesn't become a saint ... he either is or isn't ... that is it.
Smoking? Nah, but you might try to open your mind more.
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:09 pm

Avisitor wrote: Compassion and wisdom don't arise in an awakened person
It is there. Just there. Sh!t still stinks.
Wake up in the morning and drink your coffee and take a dump
It is the same. Nothing changes. The world doesn't fall apart.
A person doesn't become a saint ... he either is or isn't ... that is it.
Smoking? Nah, but you might try to open your mind more.


Hello Avisitor,
For once, I totally agree.
This “awakening” is referred to in the Hsi Yun quote I posted (on Tue Nov 03, 2015) particularly these lines:

The pure mind, the source of everything, shines on with all the brilliance of its own perfection, but the people of the world do not awake to it,

The “awakened” person has simply achieved the goal of meditation - the pure mind.

Being passively aware does not count as doing something. If we are not aware we won’t experience anything.

By the way, you forgot to tell me what the other half of the method is.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:02 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Compassion and wisdom don't arise in an awakened person
It is there. Just there.

No, I still don't get it.

You may mean, though, that you have not had this experience, and so you wouldn't and don't know. Fair enough. It's true of a lot of people, we must grant. No demerits for that. Practice continues.

(this is the "Fun and Games" area, but we've been on a little bit of a serious tack, here, somehow). ;)

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:25 am

It is like forgetting you have a head and go searching for it
So, one may believe the head is separate but once aware of it
It has always been there. And so it is with wisdom and compassion.
They do not arise. They were there before time.

Hinting as to whether one has or has not had such and such experience is to place oneself upon a pedestal and judge upon others
I make no judgement.
You can believe what you will.
You always have and the wind blows and look there ... in the garden, you stand next to the old oak tree .... hahahaha
Last edited by Avisitor on Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:33 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Hello Avisitor,
For once, I totally agree.
This “awakening” is referred to in the Hsi Yun quote I posted (on Tue Nov 03, 2015) particularly these lines:

The pure mind, the source of everything, shines on with all the brilliance of its own perfection, but the people of the world do not awake to it,

The “awakened” person has simply achieved the goal of meditation - the pure mind.

Being passively aware does not count as doing something. If we are not aware we won’t experience anything.

By the way, you forgot to tell me what the other half of the method is.
Colin

As usual, you have made up your mind of what is what and no matter what information is given to you, you don't listen
So what sense does it make for me to say anything to you?
Please, go on and be happy. Live a good life. But don't tell others that the goal of meditation is to be alert and aware or even to be blissful
Cause you are missing the other half.

I am sure when you figure it out yourself then you will believe.
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:20 pm

Av,

I think we must grant that, if, as you write, true wisdom and true compassion "are there all along", as you believe, but yet the person does not sense (detect) them, and act on them, then their presence or arising are useless to oneself and others. And if the person does not sense them, and does not act on them, then there is the epistemological question as to HOW the person -- or you -- know, or can claim to know, anything about them.

Whereas, the arising of true wisdom and true compassion are obvious to an awakened person, in the awakened person.

Acting on the true wisdom takes the form of true compassion. In other words, one's response in situations is informed by the spontaneous arising of true wisdom to the situation, in the situation, and one's natural and spontaneous response (reaction) is through true compassion. And, in further other words, one's response is appropriate. It is also non-productive of karma.

I still maintain that if you do not know -- if one does not know -- about these arisings and workings, then they are not manifest to you/one. The reason for true wisdom and true compassion not manifesting to one is that one has not awakened. This is certainly not a criticism, although some people DO sometimes criticize themselves for not practicing to a point at which awakening is likely to occur, and continue. No need to be critical, though, as it's probably counter-productive. Better, I think, in almost every case is simply to lend more attention to effective practice (of all kinds, in one's daily-life).

BTW, an awakened person is not on "a pedestal". You should know that an awakened person is in a very, very low position, truly unsophisticated, uncomplicated, "having no rank", living from our original nature, and "nothing going on". ...Except the arising of true wisdom and true compassion, in seamless synchrony and accord with circumstances.

Wishing you a good oak tree in your garden, too. In the gung-an, though, it is a Chinese Cypress, Glyptostrobus pensilis. The tree figures large also in many classical Chinese paintings. Hm-m, I wish I had some of its wood.

best,

--Joe

Avisitor wrote:It is like forgetting you have a head and go searching for it
So, one may believe the head is separate but once aware of it
It has always been there. And so it is with wisdom and compassion.
They do not arise. They were there before time.

Hinting as to whether one has or has not had such and such experience is to place oneself upon a pedestal and judge upon others
I make no judgement.
You can believe what you will.
You always have and the wind blows and look there ... in the garden, you stand next to the old oak tree .... hahahaha
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:14 pm

Avisitor wrote: But don't tell others that the goal of meditation is to be alert and aware or even to be blissful.


I’m merely repeating the words of the Zen Masters. Bliss is one product of meditation.
To repeat myself, if you are not aware you cannot experience anything.

Cause you are missing the other half.


Ah yes! The secret other half! Perhaps it is a secret that eludes you, as hinted at by your reluctance to spell it out.

I am sure when you figure it out yourself then you will believe.


No need to figure it out for myself – the Masters’instructions are crystal clear.

Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:37 pm

desert_woodworker wrote: I think we must grant that, if, as you write, true wisdom and true compassion "are there all along", as you believe, but yet the person does not sense (detect) them, and act on them, then their presence or arising are useless to oneself and others. And if the person does not sense them, and does not act on them, then there is the epistemological question as to HOW the person -- or you -- know, or can claim to know, anything about them.


Hello Joe.
From the Tao te ching:
The business of learning is one of day by day acquiring more,
The business of the Tao one of day by day dealing with less.
Yes, dealing with less and less,
Until you arrive at inaction.

Wisdom and compassion are employed in “action” - in our dealings with others in our daily lives. You either have these attributes or you don’t. No amount of zazen can endow you with them. And there is no excuse for acting without them, even if you have never heard of Zen. That’s common sense. That is why we know all about them.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:18 am

chankin1937 wrote:Wisdom and compassion are employed in “action” - in our dealings with others in our daily lives. You either have these attributes or you don’t. No amount of zazen can endow you with them.

False! Awakening is what opens the heart of true compassion in a practitioner. And awakening is most often spurred by correct practice (...of correct practices, plural).

I'm not talking about "kindness" here, and similar good, conditioned, responses.

I am talking about true compassion. That is why I append the word "true". This is Karuna. You know (or may have heard... ) by now that it arises simultaneously with prajna, in seamless response and intimate relation with circumstances, and beings, in an awakened person.

Some call it "miraculous". We don't have to call it anything special if we don't want to. But, it is truly remarkable. As is this miraculous Mind.

If you don't know about it (true wisdom; true compassion) from experience, then please don't (you; or, Av) sell it/them short (as a sometime-potential for yourself and others, ...particularly those practicing correctly).

Opening the heart of true compassion is the sole purpose of Ch'an-, Thien-, Son-, or Zen-Buddhist practice (again, true wisdom comes along with this).

Indeed, one "HAS" this heart. But OPENING it is the laudatory role of correct practice, as transmitted down the generations.

(Zen Buddhist teachers can help you with this further).

Hail!, all true teachers!

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:36 am

desert_woodworker wrote:I think we must grant ...


If you believe it is within your power then grant away ... hahaha
If wisdom and compassion arises with the situation then where does it go when the situation is passed?
The arising of wisdom and compassion is obvious to the awakened person ... a horse's ass is obvious to the horse ... hahaha
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:44 am

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:From the Tao te ching:
The business of learning is one of day by day acquiring more,
The business of the Tao one of day by day dealing with less.
Yes, dealing with less and less,
Until you arrive at inaction

You quote this!, yet you deny the fact of wu-wei in daily life. You claim that action is all worked-out, thought-to-death, with a moving mind.

All false. At least from the point of view of the Tao. Or the Buddha-Tao. Of course, it's there that you're challenged. You operate from the mind of Naive Realism, and not from the low-down awakened mind (the Tao).

What a muddled-puddle you present here consistently, and getting worse.

I hope you can succeed to straighten yourself out!, with whatever help it may take, for yourself, and all beings.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:47 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:If wisdom and compassion arises with the situation then where does it go when the situation is passed?

My friend, it's a TRANSACTION, in any moment.

Are you deliberately opaque, or is it just natural to your benightedness?

--Joe

ps they go back to rest in samadhi, until called to arise again. Yes, it is miraculous.
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:02 am

C.,

chankin1937 wrote:I’m merely repeating the words of the Zen Masters.

Yes, you are. Indeedy. That's the downfall of many, not just of yourself.

I'd say you've got it right too when you say "merely"! :lol2:

You have a mouth of your own. Why not tool-up to use it? Correct practice is available to undertake. Afterward, you may speak from experience.

Lots of people re-mouth other people's wisdom. It's never saved anyone yet. But it's done worse.

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:32 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:If wisdom and compassion arises with the situation then where does it go when the situation is passed?

My friend, it's a TRANSACTION, in any moment.

Are you deliberately opaque, or is it just natural to your benightedness?

--Joe

ps they go back to rest in samadhi, until called to arise again. Yes, it is miraculous.


Why do you believe yourself so much better and better educated than the rest?
Ego ... fills the forum ... you may have had a taste of this or that but you are a fraud.
You lack all of the wisdom and compassion of which you speak so highly of.
Guess that it must be natural to your benightedness?
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:47 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Wisdom and compassion are employed in “action” - in our dealings with others in our daily lives. You either have these attributes or you don’t. No amount of zazen can endow you with them.


Joe wrote: False! Awakening is what opens the heart of true compassion in a practitioner. And awakening is most often spurred by correct practice (...of correct practices, plural). (snip)


Hello Joe,
Zen deals with opening the mind, not the heart.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:10 pm

chankin1937 wrote:From the Tao te ching:
The business of learning is one of day by day acquiring more,
The business of the Tao one of day by day dealing with less.
Yes, dealing with less and less,
Until you arrive at inaction


Joe wrote: You quote this!, yet you deny the fact of wu-wei in daily life. You claim that action is all worked-out, thought-to-death, with a moving mind.


Hello Joe,
Actions require thought; inaction does not.
That’s called thinking for yourself and coming to the common sense conclusion guided by those historical commentators and your own experience.
They wrote in a different language and the exact meaning of many of the technical terms the Chinese and Japanese masters used are obscure. As Professor Suzuki says, “many have no equivalent words in English.” Nuances and colloquialisms are lost. But there are enough clues left to guide us through the gateless gate.
You have taken a wrong turning. The goal of Zen is Nirvana- a reconnection with our original mind - alert but passive awareness. That is more than enough.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:40 pm

chankin1937 wrote:I’m merely repeating the words of the Zen Masters.


Jor wrote: Yes, you are. Indeedy. That's the downfall of many, not just of yourself.
You have a mouth of your own. Why not tool-up to use it?


Hello Joe,
I was in that particular instance. However, thanks for the invitation. Here is my latest effort:

As the first signs of a central nervous system began to appear in the history of the evolution of life on our planet, the model that a hypothetical primitive creature could have exhibited was:
Passive awareness – reception of a stimulus – responding to that stimulus by successful action using its ability to think – return to that state of alert but passive awareness.
The stimulus could be pleasure, the demands of appetite, danger or pain. The response to pleasure would be to sustain it; to appetite to satisfy it; to danger and pain, to avoid them.
All responses would engage all the mental skills the creature possessed. (All CMA.) Once the stimulus was removed by finding a solution to the problems it presented, the possessor of such a system would return to a mental state of alert but passive awareness. You could say it would be reacquainted with its original mind. Or that it would have peace of mind – conventionally called happiness.
From this model our own highly sophisticated central nervous system has evolved.
The rules that apply to the original primordial system pertain to ours.
However, for us, as life has grown more complex, the stimuli have proliferated, and the responses to those stimuli also became innumerable to such an extent that modern men rarely if ever experience the first element of the model from which their central nervous system has evolved – alert, passive awareness – profound peace-of-mind.
Life is now so complex that the problems we are confronted with on a daily basis overwhelm us. Worse than that, a constant stream of random and habitual thoughts parades continuously through our minds. Permanent involvement in apparently insolvable problems builds a mood of dissatisfaction, frustration and lack of fulfilment – resulting in stress. Until we can confine our mental activity to its proper role – the responses listed in the original model - abstaining from them once they have fulfilled their role - we will never get our just and proper mental rewards for our successful actions. We will never experience profound peace-of-mind.
Showing no intention or even inclination to change, we voluntarily suffer under the tyranny of obsessive/compulsive thinking.

In order to reacquaint ourselves with the stress-free peace that is a natural attribute of the original creature, we can practice allowing that rampant mental activity to fade away, to burn out of its own accord in meditation. During meditation, be indifferent to whatever thoughts that arise; be neither for or against them. Make no contribution to the maelstrom churning away in your head. Just patiently observe what is going on in your own mind in as detached a manner as you can muster. Eventually all thoughts (all CMA) will die away of their own accord. Unfortunately there are no quick fixes. Don’t be disheartened . In time you will gain access to profound peace of mind - your original mind - and that is life-changing.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:51 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Zen deals with opening the mind, not the heart.
Colin

In Zen, heart and mind are not divided
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