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"method"

"method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:32 pm

To sleep... ,
count Sheep!

To wake up... ,
count breaths!

--Joe

(not to give ammunition to folks who claim -- and some do! -- that "It all comes down to Mathematics".)

ps By the way, have a look at the fine "List of Buddhist Lists" of numbered things in Buddhism -- clusters of principles, concepts, and practices and perfections surely developed in the times when literacy was not widespread, writings were scarce, and the Oral Tradition and mnemonics was THE tradition:

http://www.leighb.com/listlist.htm

(it's not exhaustive. For example, the "Eight Consciousnesses" recognized in the Yogacara School are missing from the list ...although six of them are mentioned in "Senses", and they're not called "Consciousnesses" there).
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:25 am

Count sheep or count breaths .. it all puts me to sleep :coffee:
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Re: "method"

Postby Herbie on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:28 am

To sleep again ... ,
stop breathing!
Although we don't know anything, let's make words! Words are inspiring.
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Re: "method"

Postby TTT on Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:00 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:To sleep... ,
count Sheep!

To wake up... ,
count breaths!

--Joe

(not to give ammunition to folks who claim -- and some do! -- that "It all comes down to Mathematics".)

ps By the way, have a look at the fine "List of Buddhist Lists" of numbered things in Buddhism -- clusters of principles, concepts, and practices and perfections surely developed in the times when literacy was not widespread, writings were scarce, and the Oral Tradition and mnemonics was THE tradition:

http://www.leighb.com/listlist.htm

(it's not exhaustive. For example, the "Eight Consciousnesses" recognized in the Yogacara School are missing from the list ...although six of them are mentioned in "Senses", and they're not called "Consciousnesses" there).


You also have substans concept? Ti in chines?

Te makes sleep easyer!
Ti is your mind count?
When
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:59 pm

TTT,

Funny!, what you say.

And, is that right? Is "ti" the Chinese word for "substance"?

Yes, "Substance" in Western tradition can be material, but it can also be something not seen and not felt, which was presumed to give matter or objects their particular reality and character, according to some ancient Western philosophers (before the current Scientific era). Positivists, and Logical Positivists, rule out "substance" from discussion and consideration, because it cannot be sensed nor certainly inferred, nor can it be denied or "falsified" conclusively. It may be just a mental overlay, if it is anything at all, and may not be a necessary ingredient in a fundamental description of Nature, or in any metaphysics.

I don't usually drink tea before sleeping, though, nor anything else but perhaps a little water. But a favorite Chinese Oolong tea is "Tie Guan Yin", which I receive directly from China by postal mail.

Anyway, I was just seeing a joke in how "counting" can do quite opposite things, when we use it as a method to "do" those things (sleeping; or, practicing on the Buddha path of Awakening). So, I made that little "ditty" (not quite a poem). :)

Good to see you again! I myself was off the board for a while (months).

Best,

--Joe

TTT wrote:You also have substans concept? Ti in chines?

Te makes sleep easyer!
Ti is your mind count?
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Re: "method"

Postby TTT on Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:46 am

I do not have eny chinese letters om my computer. To what you are saying about the logical positivists are correct. I wuld say, mayby. There are some opening in wittgenstains system. If we take the old wittgenstain. A very complex syetem. Its about language as letters as somthing we communicate with, i think. The academic sub disiplin, socia linguiskcs, can be interpreted as somthing, an application on thet "theory"?

The te sounds nice.

I too, dont drink befor sleeping. This night, i took a sleeping pil, thet is acceptable, i think.

Best, your self.

/magnus L.
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:10 pm

TTT, Magnus L.,

Hope you're doing well.

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:04 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
To sleep... ,
count Sheep!

To wake up... ,
count breaths!


Hello Joe,

And to get the great treasure of Zen, don’t do anything at all (in meditation).

Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Yes, "Substance" in Western tradition can be material, but it can also be something not seen and not felt, which was presumed to give matter or objects their particular reality and character, according to some ancient Western philosophers (before the current Scientific era). Positivists, and Logical Positivists, rule out "substance" from discussion and consideration, because it cannot be sensed nor certainly inferred, nor can it be denied or "falsified" conclusively. It may be just a mental overlay, if it is anything at all, and may not be a necessary ingredient in a fundamental description of Nature, or in any metaphysics.


Hello Joe,
I have come across that view and postulated this scenario to contradict it (just for fun):
I place an object in a box so that only by opening the box can you see what is inside. I make a note of what it is, in my opinion. I then ask another (normal) person to look in the box and tell me what the object is. If the object cannot be sensed or inferred, then this person must guess from a near infinite set at what the object is. His opinion, however, agrees with mine. I ask another ten people to look in the box tell me what it contains. We all agree. None of the reporters has any connection whatsoever with the others. The odds against them all guessing the same thing are astronomical. All of them have come back to tell me that the object is an apple. "Substance" is not a mental overlay and is a necessary ingredient in a fundamental description of nature, or in any metaphysics.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:34 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:And to get the great treasure of Zen, don’t do anything at all (in meditation).

To get to the great treasure of no-Mind, or Buddha-Mind, ensure that one makes no distinction between "meditation" and daily-life. This is the way of wu-wei, not-doing.

Granted, this takes a revolution of mind and body in order to come into play. Practice toward awakening -- like Politics -- is not bean-bag.

I also make no distinction between sleep and daily life, either. Sleep is a part of daily life. There'd be no life, daily or otherwise for Humans, without sleep. So it is, too, with Samadhi-practice (whether in practicing Ch'an, Vipassana (the jnanas), Vajrayana, etc.), before or after Awakening.

In daily life, for many people -- even practitioners -- continuing fascination and habituation with the "illusion of 'control' " keeps them from enjoying the reality and possibility of wu-wei. Pity. Pity; pity, pity!

Do nothing; and find that everything needed, everything called-for, gets done. Therein lies the true treasure.

The Dharma is singular and Universal, not dualistic.

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:48 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:"Substance" is not a mental overlay and is a necessary ingredient in a fundamental description of nature, or in any metaphysics.

To be clear, TTT and I were discussing "substance" in the technical philosophical sense of the word. The Logical Positivists definitely rejected it out of necessity, considering the stringency of their criterion of cognitive meaningfulness.

If you still have old Bertrand Russell's book around, THE PROBLEMS OF PHILOSOPHY (1912; 1959), see his chapters on "Universals" (chapts. IX and X), concerning ways that things -- and relations -- partake of "a common nature". The theory and discussion there is pretty much Plato's.

rgds,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:32 am

Desert Woodworker wrote: To get to the great treasure of no-Mind, or Buddha-Mind, ensure that one makes no distinction between "meditation" and daily-life. This is the way of wu-wei, not-doing……..
Do nothing; and find that everything needed, everything called-for, gets done. Therein lies the true treasure.


Hello Joe,
We have had this conversation many times before and I wondered whether it was worthwhile repeating it.
Anyway, here goes:
In meditation we abstain from CMA; In daily life we use it – that is its role.
How can we “do nothing” and find that “everything gets done”?

The experienced practitioner has access to profound-peace-of-mind and the undercurrent of random and habitual thought in his mind has given way to one of peace, but he still has appetites to satisfy and problems to solve. It is not reasonable to hold the view that this is not the case.

If anyone is to be persuaded to invest the time in Zen that is required, they must be presented with rational reasons to do so.

P.S. I find hard core philosophy meaningless and totally irrelevant.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:37 am

Desert Woodworker wrote: To get to the great treasure of no-Mind, or Buddha-Mind, ensure that one makes no distinction between "meditation" and daily-life. This is the way of wu-wei, not-doing……..
Do nothing; and find that everything needed, everything called-for, gets done. Therein lies the true treasure.


Hello Joe,
We have had this conversation many times before and I wondered whether it was worthwhile repeating it. Anyway, here goes:
In meditation we abstain from CMA; In daily life we use it – that is its role.
How can we “do nothing” and find that “everything gets done”?

The experienced practitioner has access to profound-peace-of-mind and the undercurrent of random and habitual thought in his mind has given way to one of peace, but he still has appetites to satisfy and problems to solve. It is not reasonable to hold the view that this is not the case.

If anyone is to be persuaded to invest the time in Zen that is required, they must be presented with rational reasons to do so.

P.S. I find hard core philosophy meaningless and totally irrelevant.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:16 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:How can we “do nothing” and find that “everything gets done”?

Thanks. Let that be your koan.

(there are many answers, but yours would be best for you)

There must also be others here who can attest to the truth of this. You might also ask a teacher here.

Zen training is training in daily-life.

Colin wrote:P.S. I find hard core philosophy meaningless and totally irrelevant.

I don't find it meaningless. I find it essential, and fascinating. It's an Art. It was, besides, my first profession. But I gave it up for hard-science ...which I also find essential, and fascinating. And, a good Yoga. Also, beautiful. Same is true of Philosophy. For me. :heya:

PS (I find soft-core philosophy meaningless). :lol2:

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:40 am

chankin1937 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
To sleep... ,
count Sheep!

To wake up... ,
count breaths!


Hello Joe,

And to get the great treasure of Zen, don’t do anything at all (in meditation).

Colin


So what is the difference from a lazy man and don't do anything at all? None, both do nothing!
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:42 pm

Colin wrote: And to get the great treasure of Zen, don’t do anything at all (in meditation).


Avisitor wrote: So what is the difference from a lazy man and don't do anything at all? None, both do nothing!

Hello Avisitor,
The clue is in the words in brackets. To make it a little clearer:
During meditation, be indifferent to whatever thoughts that arise; be neither for or against them. Make no contribution to the maelstrom churning away in your head. Just patiently observe what is going on in your own mind in as detached a manner as you can muster. Eventually these thoughts will die away of their own accord. Unfortunately there are no quick fixes. Don’t be disheartened . In time you will gain access to profound peace of mind - and that is life-changing.

Hsi Yun (a Zen Master who lived about 840 A.D.) had this advice to give about meditation:
" ...To make use of the mind to think (in the ordinary sense of the
word) is to leave the substance and attach yourself to forms....
The pure mind, the source of everything, shines on with all the
brilliance of its own perfection, but the people of the world do not
awake to it, regarding only that which sees, hears, feels and knows as
mind. Because their understanding is veiled by their own sight, hearing,
feeling and knowledge, they do not understand the spiritual brilliance
of the original substance. If they could only eliminate all analytical
thinking
in a flash, that original substance would manifest itself like
the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe
without hindrance or bounds....
Neither hold to them (sight, hearing, etc.), abandon them, dwell in them
nor cleave to them, but exist independently of all that is above, below
or around you...."


(This quote also gives us a definition of what "awakening" is.)

Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:33 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Hello Avisitor,
The clue is in the words in brackets. To make it a little clearer:
During meditation, be indifferent to whatever thoughts that arise; be neither for or against them. Make no contribution to the maelstrom churning away in your head. Just patiently observe what is going on in your own mind in as detached a manner as you can muster. Eventually these thoughts will die away of their own accord. Unfortunately there are no quick fixes. Don’t be disheartened . In time you will gain access to profound peace of mind - and that is life-changing.
Colin

So you are doing something.
Still, that isn't meditation ... it is only part of the whole instructions.
Foolish to believe doing half of the method will bring you all the way home
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:20 pm

chankin1937 wrote: During meditation, be indifferent to whatever thoughts that arise; be neither for or against them. Make no contribution to the maelstrom churning away in your head. Just patiently observe what is going on in your own mind in as detached a manner as you can muster. Eventually these thoughts will die away of their own accord. Unfortunately there are no quick fixes. Don’t be disheartened . In time you will gain access to profound peace of mind - and that is life-changing.


Avisitor wrote: So you are doing something.
Still, that isn't meditation ... it is only part of the whole instructions.
Foolish to believe doing half of the method will bring you all the way home.


Hello Avisitor,
I’m puzzled as to how you can interpret what I have written as instructions to do something.
There really isn’t anything to do other that stay alert and awake!
I am also intrigued by your suggestion that I have omitted part of the instructions.
Please be kind enough to tell me what I have omitted.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:19 pm

Do a self reflection upon your own words and see if you are not instructing someone to DO something or not.
And yes, you are missing the rest of the what meditation is ... doing half of the method won't bring you home
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:01 pm

hi, Av,

Indeed, the "halves" of practice... . :heya:

Shamatha-Vipassana. Stopping-Insight. Samadhi-Insight. The jhanas-Insight. These are ways of naming practices in original Buddhism. I've been reading more about them lately as presented by Eastern and Western Vipassana teachers. Many of the Vipassana teachers teach students to cultivate Samadhi states first (the four, or eight, jhanas), and then to do Insight practice. They say it's particularly hard to cultivate "Insight" without first developing the jhanas, and they call the practice without cultivating the jhanas "dry"- Insight. I'm dubious that there can actually be insight without developing the jhanas, and then waking-up out of them for periods of reception of Insight.

I'm finding this reading very interesting, and I'm noting parallels with aspects of Zen Buddhist practice, with which I'm a lot more familiar.

In the Zen Buddhist tradition, too, practice is not carried out uni-dimensionally merely to reach equanimity, or the Samadhi states. Instead, the Zen Buddhist way, practiced correctly, emphasizes -- and does effectively compassionately encourage -- Sudden-Awakening, following which is life lived with the arising of Wisdom (as occurs in an awakened person). And of course, in a person so awakened, Compassion also arises simultaneously and spontaneously with Wisdom, in perfect accord with circumstances, during all activities of daily life.

Being able to sit like a stone or a dead log in blissful ignorance does not ensure that a person will awaken, nor is awake. Wisdom and Compassion are the true signs of awakening, instead.

I know you (probably... ) agree with these points. I'm just sharing my appreciation of them here for all. ;)

--Joe

Avisitor wrote:Do a self reflection upon your own words and see if you are not instructing someone to DO something or not.
And yes, you are missing the rest of the what meditation is ... doing half of the method won't bring you home
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