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"method"

Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:17 am

chankin1937 wrote:
Their ego's won't let go the grip they have on their insanity.


That’s odd, I don’t feel insane and Joe doesn’t show any signs of mental instability.
On the other hand, insane people don’t as a rule know they are.


That is odd.
We have one person speaking of not using their minds and not thinking like it is the golden rule for a blissful life
And another who believes himself to be better off because he knows more of the mechanics and rituals of a religion than a lay person
Yeah, guess insanity does feel better than the truth

Edit: No, I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular .. just in general ... hahaha
Education may make one a smarter person or Money might make one a richer person
But, it doesn't mean they are a better person.
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Re: "method"

Postby Mason on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:39 am

Avisitor wrote:Education may make one a smarter person or Money might make one a richer person
But, it doesn't mean they are a better person.


I haven't seen anyone on the forum proclaim that they were better than anyone else. In fact, I've only seen people explicitly reject such claims.

Why not be grateful when people offer the insights that they've gleaned from their education? Is there something wrong with that?
Interconnectedness: it's like two sides of the same coin, except each side is everything in the universe - including the coin.
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:50 am

Avisitor wrote: We have one person speaking of not using their minds and not thinking like it is the golden rule for a blissful life.And another who believes himself to be better off because he knows more of the mechanics and rituals of a religion than a lay person.


Hello Av,
I’m not the first one – I must be the other one.( Mechanics - yes. Rituals – no.)
When I pause for a moment and gauge how I feel, I find that you are right. I feel infinitely better than I used to. Thank you zazen.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby partofit22 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:44 pm

Avisitor wrote:
partofit22 wrote:And the discovery of insanity while practicing could potentially lead to even more insanity by using practice as a measure to conceal or ignore it-


The catch 22 ... one can not experience satori through the practice of meditation
Yet, it is almost (qualifier) impossible to experience satori without some practice of meditation

Insanity leads to more insanity
But without it, there can be no one sane

Wisdom and compassion do not arise in situations
Like breath does not arise in the living
It is a part of it ... it is it ... it was there and now is gone ... crying over spilled milk

I don't have to be right ... just not crazy


Don't have to remain crazy, no- But crazy is what there is to be on the way to getting to the bottom of "to be"-
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:09 am

Forum,

Thus-gone wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Education may make one a smarter person or Money might make one a richer person
But, it doesn't mean they are a better person.

I haven't seen anyone on the forum proclaim that they were better than anyone else. In fact, I've only seen people explicitly reject such claims.

Why not be grateful when people offer the insights that they've gleaned from their education? Is there something wrong with that?

Howdy, All. See here... . A clear-eyed, good listener / reader / poster shows up. TG!

We should be glad. I know I am!

Quite sane, too, I'd opine, ...being same, m'self. ;)

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:42 am

Thus-gone wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Education may make one a smarter person or Money might make one a richer person
But, it doesn't mean they are a better person.


I haven't seen anyone on the forum proclaim that they were better than anyone else. In fact, I've only seen people explicitly reject such claims.

Why not be grateful when people offer the insights that they've gleaned from their education? Is there something wrong with that?

No one outright proclaims it.
They do it subtle
Read this quote ..
desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:If wisdom and compassion arises with the situation then where does it go when the situation is passed?

My friend, it's a TRANSACTION, in any moment.

Are you deliberately opaque, or is it just natural to your benightedness?

--Joe

ps they go back to rest in samadhi, until called to arise again. Yes, it is miraculous.


Who uses words like that? Benightedness?
And to use it in a way to say one ... well, can you see the slight?
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:57 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Who uses words like that? Benightedness?
And to use it in a way to say one ... well, can you see the slight?

"I'm a poet
and I don't even know it.
But my feet show it!:
They're Longfellows."

Do I see the slight?
Slightly.
You?
Good... .

I'm only going -- and can only "go" -- by representations that you knowingly -- or unknowingly -- provide, here. Attention!

Hail!

--J.

ps "Fun and Games Area".
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:50 am

You can dance and joke around all you like
One can still see your intentions
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:02 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:You can dance and joke around all you like

Well, thanks. You're a good man, in my book. I don't care what they all say.

Good to see you out of the hoosegow, by the way (another vocabulary word for you... ). :heya:

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:44 pm

Avisitor wrote: Do a self reflection upon your own words and see if you are not instructing someone to DO something or not.
And yes, you are missing the rest of the what meditation is ... doing half of the method won't bring you home.


Hello Avisitor,
His-yun is quite specific, “eliminate all analytical thinking”. Once you have done that there is no capability of doing anything else. There is no room for your imaginary “other half”. And certainly no opportunity to develop wisdom and compassion. These are attributes of the thinking mind, not the mind at rest.

P.S. If you ever get round to dreaming up the other half of meditation, post it here.
If you don’t post it I think we can safely assume that it was a figment of your imagination.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:26 pm

chankin1937 wrote:If you ever get round to dreaming up the other half of meditation, post it here.
If you don’t post it I think we can safely assume that it was a figment of your imagination.
Colin

You will continue to believe whatever it is you wish to believe regardless of whether it is true or not
So tell me why I should waste my time and tell you what you have not seen for yourself ... especially when it is obvious

If you eliminate all analytical thinking then what is left??
You have shut down this thinking mind ... what is left?

You said, "“eliminate all analytical thinking”. Once you have done that there is no capability of doing anything else."
So you have no capability to do anything else??
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:27 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:His-yun is quite specific, “eliminate all analytical thinking”.

Well, the translator of what Hsi Yun is presumed to have said, is the one who has been specific. And, note, too, that Hsi Yun likely said OTHER things, too, at other similarly opportune times, in expedient ways, depending on circumstances. This is why one must have a LIVE, living, three-dimensional teacher, rather than to try to "learn" from fossilized road-kill, steam-roller-ized onto flat pages by ignorant and mechanical printing presses.

You're (being) like people who quote the Bible, Colin. They say, "The Bible SAYS... ". But, no: "the Bible" says a lot of things. At least some of it is contradictory. And the New Testament was assembled and cut-and-pasted by Councils convened hundreds of years after the founder of the religion of Christianity died. (Let's leave aside the fact that some quip that Paul was the actual founder of Christianity, while Jesus was the victim of it). As in Buddhism, the Founder never wrote a word. But a person of assured-faith steam-rollers right over all this, and more, quoting and re-quoting selected words, and ONLY selected words. Pitiful. "Faith" can be ossification, make no mistake, unless it is alive.

I'd say that if Avisitor has "half" of "meditation", you show in your representations here that you lack even that much yourself. Av has been most kind. And so have teachers here. I try to be, but it seems I don't succeed. Yet, the offer still stands, and is available anytime. Just re-read what members here have written you. Especially the bits that share the appreciation of the importance of a teacher, and sangha. Even though a teacher and sangha are not for you -- or vice-versa -- you should know that the teaching is not where you think it is. It is NOT in writings.

Even teachers who have done long, solitary practice retreats to refine and care for their realization have had real teachers and real sanghas. Again, Zen Buddhist practice is not and has never been a solo or solitary practice, even if a person becomes a master and retires to the mountains later in life, or during some period. Without practice under an awakened master, there'd be no such retirement for the old man, or woman.

As an example, my teacher Sheng Yen undertook a six-year solitary retreat in a hut on a mountain along the mountainous central spine of the island of Taiwan. After his awakening in the monastery in town, he went out from his teacher's place, leaving his teacher and brother monks of the sangha for that time on the mountain. At the end of the solitary stint, he went back below. Then, went to Japan to take a PhD in Buddhist Studies so he could better spread the Dharma in the West, which he did, and he has numerous successors in Western countries, including UK (Bury; and London), USA, Poland, Croatia, Switzerland, and Belgium. There are some more in Eastern countries.

Well, good morning.

best,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:08 pm

chankin1937 wrote:If you ever get round to dreaming up the other half of meditation, post it here. If you don’t post it I think we can safely assume that it was a figment of your imagination.


Avisitor wrote: If you eliminate all analytical thinking then what is left??
You have shut down this thinking mind ... what is left?


Hello Avisitor,
We have not shut down anything. We have just abstained from using the tool of “thinking”, ideally because it has done its job. We are left with our unencumbered (by thoughts) awareness which in us is peace of mind – conventionally called happiness. Some Masters have described this experience as bliss.

You said, "“eliminate all analytical thinking”. Once you have done that there is no capability of doing anything else."So you have no capability to do anything else??


That’s right; you don’t do anything else. Just experience what passive awareness feels like.
The reason why we do this is sketched out below;

As the first signs of a central nervous system began to appear in the history of the evolution of life on our planet, the model that primitive system exhibited was:
Passive awareness – reception of a stimulus – reacting to that stimulus by successful action – returning to a state of alert passive awareness..
The stimulus could be pleasure, the demands of appetite, danger or pain. The response to pleasure would be to sustain it; to appetite to satisfy it; to danger and pain, to avoid them.
All responses would engage all the mental skills the primitive creature possessed. Once the stimulus was removed by finding a solution to the problems it presented, the possessor of such a system would return to a mental state of alert but passive awareness. You could say it would be reacquainted with its original mind. Or that it would have peace of mind – conventionally called happiness.
This is the model from which our own highly sophisticated central nervous system has evolved.
The rules that apply to the original primordial system apply to ours.
However, for us, as life has grown more complex, the stimuli proliferated, and the responses to those stimuli have overwhelmed us to such an extent that modern men rarely if ever experience the first element of the model from which their central nervous system has evolved – alert, passive awareness – profound peace-of-mind.
Meditation (zazen) is a way to reacquaint us with that first element - passive awareness – peace of mind.
I hope this clears up a few points.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:32 pm

Joe,
chankin1937 wrote:His-yun is quite specific, “eliminate all analytical thinking”.


Joe wrote: Well, the translator of what Hsi Yun is presumed to have said, is the one who has been specific. And, note, too, that Hsi Yun likely said OTHER things, too, at other similarly opportune times, in expedient ways, depending on circumstances. This is why one must have a LIVE, living, three-dimensional teacher, rather than to try to "learn" from fossilized road-kill, steam-roller-ized onto flat pages by ignorant and mechanical printing presses.


Hello Joe,
Advice to abstain from “thinking” is a consistent theme expressed by most of the great figures in Buddhism, particularly Zen. Your view amounts to blasphemy/heresy.
If you want to know why they were right (and you and your teachers – if they agree with you - are wrong) read my post to Avisitor above.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:55 pm

chankin1937 wrote:“eliminate all analytical thinking”. Once you have done that there is no capability of doing anything else.



You said "that there is no capability of doing anything else."
Now, you're saying there is??

chankin1937 wrote:That’s right; you don’t do anything else. Just experience what passive awareness feels like.



Make up your mind which it is
If there is no capability of doing anything then how can you experience anything??


Playing mind games here is not Zen nor is it meditation
Please go back to the basics and learn the truth
Other wise choose your words carefully
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:08 pm

Avisitor
chankin1937 wrote:“eliminate all analytical thinking”. Once you have done that there is no capability of doing anything else.


Avisitor said: You said "that there is no capability of doing anything else."
Now, you're saying there is??
Make up your mind which it is
Playing mind games here is not Zen nor is it meditation
Please go back to the basics and learn the truth


Hello Avisitor,
I recommend that you abstain from CMA.
Abstain = to do without or to hold oneself back from.
It’s not an action. It is alert but passive awareness of a mind empty of activity in the form of “thinking”.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby Avisitor on Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:14 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Abstain = to do without or to hold oneself back from.


Everything you do is an action
To see it otherwise is to see only one side of the truth and not the whole truth
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:21 pm

Avisitor wrote : Everything you do is an action
To see it otherwise is to see only one side of the truth and not the whole truth


Hello Av,
Awareness is an attribute of our central nervous system. You don’t “do” it, you just “are” it.
Colin
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Re: "method"

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:01 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Advice to abstain from “thinking” is a consistent theme expressed by most of the great figures in Buddhism, particularly Zen. Your view amounts to blasphemy/heresy.

Colin, one last time, and we're done. Others here, too, please take note !

Teachers -- and Zen Buddhist teaching -- say nothing about abstaining from thinking. You're had it wrong for decades. And, no wonder.

Zen Buddhism has methods, which are to be attended to. In attending to a METHOD (hmm, to match the title of this thread ! ), there is no subsidiary exercise going on. NO multi-tasking. A Zen Buddhist, who is truly practicing practicing Zen Buddhist methods, is practicing A METHOD. Singular... . One is NOT simultaneously practicing a method AND... doing Colin's exercise of abstemiousness (make mine a large g-and-t, btw).

Please, please, update your time-clock, reset your chronometer, and stop posting stuff that everyone here knows is hogwash.

And please read something written since about 1938, if you're incompatible with seeing a teacher. The popularizers then were quoting stories, and not teaching. They were not advocating or teaching methods (well, naturally; one can't, except in-person). But we thank them anyway for the stories, and the blather. True teachers came along later, to the West. Hail!

You have the floor, Colin. No use my engaging further. Folks here I think know enough to find the true Dharma by following the leads of actual teachers, not regurgitators of road-kill and fossilized bed-time stories. Cheers, be well, strong practice. And, whatever of "yours" reincarnates -- if indeed anything -- may it find good conditions for True practice in the putative future-lives that some speak about.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: "method"

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:03 pm

desert_woodworker
chankin1937 wrote:Advice to abstain from “thinking” is a consistent theme expressed by most of the great figures in Buddhism, particularly Zen. Your view amounts to blasphemy/heresy.


Joe wrote: Teachers -- and Zen Buddhist teaching -- say nothing about abstaining from thinking. You're had it wrong for decades. And, no wonder.
One is NOT simultaneously practicing a method AND... doing Colin's exercise of abstemiousness (make mine a large g-and-t, btw).


Hello Joe,
That’s right, Joe. In meditation, abstaining from all thinking is the method.
I think the word I am looking for is “gobsmacked”!
How can anyone with your experience know so little of the fundamental truth of Zen?
You have reputedly met a number of authorised teachers yet you blatantly assert that abstaining from CMA is not what you are advised to do in meditation. Frankly, I find that very hard to believe. Are you playing some sort of game? I have looked at the websites of a number of living Zen masters and found their advice generally conforms to “letting thoughts go” , which is what “abstain from CMA” means. Refrain from mental activity: just become passively aware of what that feels like.
Great Dogen says: "Cut off thought by the power of meditation.
and in the Zazen-gi: " Be without thoughts--this is the secret of meditation. Being without thoughts is the object of Zen meditation;”
If you are not taking their advice then I fear you are on some outer path of your own devising.

Please, please, update your time-clock, reset your chronometer, and stop posting stuff that everyone here knows is hogwash.


How do you know what everyone knows? I hope you are wrong (I’m sure you are) because if that is true it’s a disaster.

.
The popularizers then were quoting stories, and not teaching. They were not advocating or teaching methods (well, naturally; one can't, except in-person). But we thank them anyway for the stories, and the blather. True teachers came along later, to the West. Hail!


Shall we list a few of these popularisers? Sakyamuni Buddha, Dogen, Hakuin, Huang po, Mw Tsu, Asvaghosha…..And the rest.
Let the readers here make up their own minds as to whether anything you post is worth reading .

You have the floor, Colin. No use my engaging further.


We can only hope! :)
Colin
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